Kohler's River: Wrong turn at Swan lake ??

[A_Clay_Man]

In the spirit of the spirit, does the River course lose it's balance as a golf course with the addition of the newer nine holes?

In olden days, way back in 89', the course started in the same way it does today but rather than cross thru the woods on #5 to Heavens door it played back toward the clubhouse on what is now #14. There is no question that amongst holes #5-#13 are some great golf. But as courses have a life and a  breath, did this deviation take away from the soul and flow of the course, or are the new holes so over-powering that it made the COURSE better?

I say that back when you played the original route there was more continuity to the round and all things fit better than the way things are now.

What you say?

[Matt Kardash]

As Shivas said, it's hard to imagine BWR wihtout #5..
I've never had the experience of playing the orginal 18 as it once was, but the river course is incredible, even underrated if that's at all possible!

[Paul Richards]

as Shivas explained, probably the best set of holes on the River are the ones that were added.  The original course is pretty good, but the River as it exists now is the best routing, IMHO.

[Will E]

Adam,
I'll answer your question with a firm YES.
The "tournament course" is just so good that I hate to see it chopped up. The current back nine at MV may be in my top 5 nines anywhere.

As far as 5-13 go I really disagree with Paul in his thoughts that they are the strongest holes on the River. It's a fine nine for sure, but IMHO doesn't even compare to the original nine except in it's natural beauty along the river. The front nine of the MV course is a nice design as well, but not even close in comparision to the final nine.

Playing the newer holes are hardly type of let down you have when you cross the road to play the new holes of La Costa North, or the front nine of La Costa South. There have been a lot of courses that have been totally butched by the grneed for more rounds, BWR isn't one of them, although it does have a scar from the much needed operation.

[Paul Richards]

Shooter:

IMHO, #5 on the River is one of the prettiest holes around.  

What don't you like about the 5-13 stretch?

[A_Clay_Man]

Paul, One of the best stories I heard last year was about TF himself and his advice to Steve Wynn to not make the mistake of overpowering the golfer by trying to out do one hole after another. I agree that the holes of the newer nine are spectacular. Heck, Hell's Gate is one of my all-time Favorites, but what I was refering to was the course. Not the holes. Does that make sense?  

[John Morrissett]

Good question.

I have often debated which is the better 18 -- the current River Course or the holes used for the '98 Women's Open (the back nine at MV, playing to the 10th green from the clubhouse side of the Sheboygan, plus 1-4, 14-18 on the River (a combination that I believe is the original 18).  (Note: Despite the trip across the Sheboygan, those holes were used for the Women's Open largely for logistical purposes.)

The questions are (1) which is better -- the back nine at MV or 5-13 on the River and (2), as Adam writes, which "flows" better.

(1) While MV has gone up in my eyes with each round there (I love the 13th and 14th), I do think 5-13 on the River are slightly better than the holes left out at MV.  The only real criticism is the redundancy of having the Sheboygan on the right, but that is splitting hairs -- would you criticize 6-10 at Pebble Beach for having the water to your right??

(2) Despite the hikes to and from 5 and 13, I think the River Course actually flows much better.  The main reason is that the least interesting holes (being all relative!) are those around the clubhouse -- 2,3,14,15.  While 16-18 is a stirring finish, the preceding five holes during the Women's Open seemed a little tame when taken together -- they are better when broken up.

[SL_Solow]

I have played the Blackwolf Run every year save one since it opened.  I believe the course is significantly better after the addition of the new holes.  I agree with the previous post regarding the relative weakness of the holes nearest the clubhouse.  While crossing the road between 4 and 5 and then back is somewhat inconvenient the new holes are excellent and their beauty is incomparable for a parkland golf course.  The prior post on the spiritual nature of golf has real meaning to many of us who have reached the 5th tee on an early summer day and Shivas is right about the fall.  Nothing compared to this feeling in the original configuration.

[A_Clay_Man]

SL- I'd say the tranquility of the Valley's hole "Nature's Course" or "Walk", I forget, is the most peaceful place on the entire property. And the following hole "Mercy" is as good as it gets for one shotters.

While John points out correctly that in a hole by hole comparison the newer holes win out, but I still say the that the balance of the original is not to be forgotten.

[RJ_Daley]

I think the original, or composite that the Women played makes for a great venue to watch and compete at the ladies level.  But the holes added and comprising the River course are the most demanding for the men.  If I had only one pick of 18 holes, I'd take the composite back nine with seldom used across River and up hill #1 Meadow and 1-4-13-18 River.

Although it would require cartball, what a promotional pre-peak season or post season thrill it would be if they let you take a cart and pick your own 18 from the whole 37  , on the property.  No, make that pick your own 27 favorites .
Which brings about the question, which 9 would you skip over? :-/

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Dick,
I would skip the front nine at Meadows, hands-down.

The second nine would be a much tougher task.  I cannot decide.. You?

[Paul Richards]

Numbers 8 and 9 are, after #5, the best holes on either course, IMHO.  I also really like #16.

Now if they could just find a way to blow up #14 on the River, they'd be onto something....

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Paul,
You are very right.

14 is completely out of character with the rest of the course.

What nine would you give up?

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

It would have to be one of the Meadow Valley nines, obviously.  

However, there are a few really good holes sprinkled amongst some dogs, and some just-plain holes, but that par 3 (#17?) is just spectacular.

Now if we could exchange a few of the holes on the River , like #14 and 15, #2 and 4, for a few of the MV holes, we'd really be onto something!!

[Tim Weiman]

I share the previously stated disappointment with #14 at the Black Wolf Run River course. It may be the biggest let down in golf.

[Paul Richards]

Tim:

What on earth was Dye thinking about there at #14?  It's just a terrible hole.

[John Morrissett]

Wow!  I'm surprised at the strong feelings for the 14th hole on the River Course.  While it is certainly not one of the ten favorites on the course, I have never thought of it as a "terrible" hole.

(1) Coming after 10-13, it serves as a breather that can also be dangerous for those who let their guard down too much after that heroic strtech of holes.  I have seen several people play 10-13 in even or +1, only to make 6 on 14.

(2) There is strategy to it, albeit artificial: Bail left off the tee and have a blind shot across the bunker and more toward the water; challenge the water off the tee and have a straightforward pitch.

(3) In perhaps the last Andersen match play there, they moved the tees up for the final, and the two players had a crack at the green -- pretty neat match play hole.

(4) When you look at the property that Pete had for the original nine holes on that side of the Sheboygan, it really wasn't that great -- think how cramped the holes are with the Sheboygan and road (across which Pete, I believe, was not allowed to go at the time).  Therefore, the 14th is somewhat of a "forced" hole, and Pete had to work hard to make it different than the 4th.

(5) I'm embarrassed to write this, but the hole does look good from the clubhouse and practice green.

[Tim Weiman]

Paul Richards,

I don't know what Dye was thinking. #5 through 13 are such an enjoyable experience that maybe his creative juices just ran out.

As for other holes, I enjoyed #3 and #16.

[A_Clay_Man]

I like that you used the word bland. I happen to really like the greensite on 15. The mounds behind the green as framing and the huge sand pit front left makes me feel like I think I might feel on TOC.

I think the subtext of my post here was to point out how holes 5-13 are so demanding that they deviate from the original too much. Imagine chipoat on the 13th, he'd go bizerk.
The 13th is almost completly blocked by trees, cept for the rightside where the river frames the greensite. Not fun for a guy who only started aiming right recently. I don't know how many times I bailed so far left that the chip from left and beyond the trees is my signature spot.

Come to think of  it, Chip would hate 3,8,9,11,13 and really hate 16.

[Tim Weiman]

Shivas:

I'm aware of how the course was originally built. Somehow the transition from #4 to 5 just works better than #13 to 14. Maybe that's just because #5 is such a pleasure and #14 is such an invitation to trouble.

#14 disappoints the first time you see it, but becomes even worse in subsequent visits. You just have to put aside the disappointing aesthetics and avoid screwing up. I have a habit of playing holes I don't like poorly.

[A_Clay_Man]

Tim- If you know the original could you please explain the running out of juices comment? Are you aware of the timeframe too?
 And, of course the transition works better to #5 because you tee off from the cliff, and on return you have a longer walk, but by all means a nice serene walk over the bridge thru the trees and either over or thru the tunnel. Or do you ride there?

Which perhaps brings up the answer to my own question. The newer nine makes the golf course a much tougher walk,almost cartball and that maybe the balance I was refering to earlier was the walk of the original. Thanx.

[Jeff Goldman]

Ben,

To answer your question, I would definitely give up the front nine of meadow-valleys.  Although I think 2 and 4 are good holes, and 5 and 6 are fun, the flatness of the land makes this nine the least unforgettable, most manufactured and (for this reason) have more Pete Dye repeats than the other nines.  The only caveat I have is that the original 1 should replace the awful 10th on the meadow-valleys course, which I think is the worst of all.  Like 14 on the River course, it seems to have been stuck there for routing reasons.

As to the 14th, I agree that after the very difficult stretch, it seems to be a breather which can jump up and bite.  There are a few holes that seem manufactured on the river course, and all of these seem to date from the original routing.  2 and especially 4 also seem manufactured on less-good land near the clubhouse, and I don't particularly care for the mounds between 1 and 2.  Good holes, just more fitting with the front 9 of meadow-valleys.  Wouldn't the best be the original 1 and 12-18 meadow valleys, 5-13 river with 16 tucked in there somewhere?  Not much of a routing, but the greatest holes.  In any event, Tom Doak's book states that the land where 5-13 came in was originally made off-limits by Mr. Kohler, so it couldn't be used.

Jeff Goldman