Death to carts -- and cart paths

[Dan King]

Dean Kamen announced his new invention the other day, at one time code named IT and Ginger, it is now called Segway.



My biggest complaint with carts is that they have allowed developers and architects to ignore principles of routing, knowing carts can just take the golfer from one hole to the next. But some of my other complaints -- carts slowing down the game and the cart paths all over the course -- can be solved with Segway.

Take a course like Kapalua-Plantation course, a fine course that has a couple hikes that make it very tough to hike. The course could shuttle a bunch of the Segways back and forth for the walkers to use to get between the more difficult holes.

Initial price will be $8k for industrial version and $3k for consumer version. And at 65 to 80 lbs there isn't any reason they couldn't go most anywhere on a golf course.

Click here for Yahoo's coverage of Segway

Click here for official Segway site

"If all we end up with are a few billion-dollar niche markets, then that would be disappointment. It's not like our goal was just to put the golf-cart industry out of business."
 --Dean Kamen (at the launch of Segway)

[JohnV]

Dan,
I don't see the benefit of the using the Segway for this rather than just having a shuttle cart to haul each group across the voids.  After all, someone is still going to have to get them all back to the start at some point.  You'd have to have a lot of them in order to not have someone doing that full time.

I wonder if the PGA Tour might make Casey Martin use one in the future (assuming he ever gets back out there.)  It seems like it would be less intrusive than a regular golf cart.

[RJ_Daley]

I played today in Green Bay (  It reached 60*   ), joining in with 3 other guys that came over to the only course that is open in the area from one of the country clubs.  One of the guys is the patriarch owner of one of the biggest car dealerships in the region.  The other guys were retired gents of considerable means.  They were seriously brainstorming the concept of what it would take to modify those segways to hold you and your bag to replace the now popular remote controlled hoppers.  I mentioned to them that it sounded like a better alternative to carts but it still destroys the concept of walking for the healthful benefits.  And, I must say that all three of these gentlmen who are all in their 70s were walking with pull carts and say they walk often at the CC.  

Dan, it is an intriquing idea and might help to de-emphaisis the cart path's domination of the golf hole.  But, I don't see you on one of those contraptions for another 30 years!  

[RJ_Daley]

John, great observation on the Martin case.  You sure prove the point that the contraption is going to change the world!  

[Rick Shefchik]

A golf cart (or bus) is a much more efficient way of hauling golfers on those half-mile slogs between holes on otherwise walkable courses.

But where Kamen missed the boat was in designing these things for people, rather than baggage -- such as golf bags. I know there are already motorized golf trolleys, but the ones I've seen still need a lot of manual controlling, especially on hills. If you could build a Segway that would haul your golf bag and be steered by some sort of remote-control gyroscopic device (a la "Ginger"), we'd get more people walking and we could start pulling up some of that pavement.

[Chris Hervochon]

I think you are all right, carts and cart paths should all be outlawed in this country.  I also believe they go down as one of this countries biggest mistakes and epitomizes the laziness of Americans.  The answer to the problem, however, does not lie in some inventors crappy little motorized scooter.  The answer, in fact, can be found with the reinstatement of the caddy.  Think long and hard about what it would mean for even %30 of this counries golf courses to have caddies.  What would it do for the unemployment rate?  What would it mean to the health of Americans as a whole?  What would it mean to golf course architecture?  What would it mean to young kids who need job?  What would it mean to th future of the game?  Golf was at its best when caddies were around, and at its worst when somebody invented the golf cart.  Think about the questions I pose, seriously, and I garauntee you will come up with some very interesting answers.

[Peter Galea]

I am not a doctor, I just play one on the internet.
I don't believe segway would be the answer to Casey's problem, it would still require 5 hours of standing.
Tough to take for someone with a circulatory problem.

The remote controled ginger/segway "club carrier" was tried for years by Intellicaddy. They have since gone bankrupt. It was controlled by GPS to travel certain paths and had a remote control overide. Too bad, it 'would' have encouraged walking. If ayone wants to see it, I have one in my shop.

[RJ_Daley]

Chris, I think your heart is definitely in the right spot.  But, the real problem is in the "interest" that youngsters have to work as a caddie.  The market of interersted workers just isn't there at rates traditionally paid to caddies.  If we paid them at minimum hourly wages+ tip, most teens 13-16 won't shlep bags for 4-5 hours.  I recently did a survey of employers in our area who traditionally employ high school age youth in typically entry level part-time jobs.  They are pulling their hair out trying to get enough youth workers in that wage/age sector and comply with various state and federal labor laws to boot.  

[Dan King]

I think this post will get me out of the newbie stage.

My thought isn't that these will replace walking, that they will replace the large golf cart.  I would hope even if they gained wide-spread use that I would continue to walk.

IMHO the three strikes against carts are:

• They have drastically slowed down play
• Allowed developers to ignore quality routing
• Encouraged the building of cart paths  

I think the Segway can solve two out of three of these problems. I think four golfers on Segways can play faster than four golfers in two golf carts.  Maybe someone more in the know about greenskeeping can help, but I don't think an added 60 pounds per golfer is going to cause the problems that golf carts cause with compaction, etc... hence, no need for cart paths.  The tires look narrower than I think you might want for a golf course, but it says: "Tubeless and resistant to flats. Treated for enhanced traction on wet surfaces and to leave no mark indoors."

And speaking of caddies, it's become popular for caddies to double bag, giving them twice the pay for a loop.  The problem with double bagging is rarely are the two going to hit anywhere near each other. Two golfers walking with a caddie on a Segway could make a caddie double bagging more feasable.

My point is that I don't think this is as good as walking a golf course, but it is a big improvement over cart-ball.

Ye're makin' a great mistake if ye think the gemme is meant for the shots. The gemme is meant for walkin'.
 --Shivas Irons (Golf in the Kingdom)

[Kevin_Reilly]

Any thread with an anti-cart and anti-cartpath theme is guaranteed to grab my attention.  I hate them both with a passion.  The ginger probably isn't a solution because a lot of people like to double up on the carts to bs as they motor down the path.

They'd also "disappear" after rounds since the ginger is intended for mainstream use, unlike golf carts (unless you live at a retirement community).

On a side note, 2 positive developments in the anti-cart war.  Mayacama, the new JN course in Sonoma, has no carts.  That's pretty amazing given the wealth of the membership.  And another positive is that Olympic I think removed a path from the left side of the second fairway.  Any time a path disappears it should be celebrated.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
I get the impression you don't like carts? I am not a tremendous fan either but I do think they were inevitable, like steel shafts, titanium heads, three-piece balls, yardage markers, etc..  
-A cart used by a knowledgeable golfer/s can speed play, especially here in the northeast with our hilly terrain.
-I think there are more lousy routings due to real estate developments and/or environmental restrictions than can be attributed to carts.  
-Yes, there surely have been more cart paths built since the advent of carts. You really didn't see too many cart paths before there were carts.

The city of New York has already banned these vehicles from their sidewalks. The golf course may become very important to this company.  

[A_Clay_Man]

I will go out a limb and say that the day someone shows up with a segway the owner/operator will either not allow it or charge you a fee to use it on thier course.

[Dan King]

jim_kennedy wrote:
-A cart used by a knowledgeable golfer/s can speed play, especially here in the northeast with our hilly terrain.

So why is cart-ball always so damn slow? Are there really that many unknowledgable golfers, or is it possilbe the problem is the carts?

-I think there are more lousy routings due to real estate developments and/or environmental restrictions than can be attributed to carts.  

But these lousy routings wouldn't exist if not for carts. The real estate developer would have to figure out something else to still make the course walkable and the developer/architect would have to figure out ways around the environmental restrictions or find another location.  

-Yes, there surely have been more cart paths built since the advent of carts. You really didn't see too many cart paths before there were carts.

So  we agree.  The way to rid the world of cart paths is to rid the world of carts.

"Walking also enables us to watch a hole unfold in front of us. To walk a course is analogous to driving a long distance rather than flying. While driving, we see the country instead of racing over it. There's a human scale that flying cannot offer."
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[BillV]

A ginger wouldn't help Casey Martin, even if his case were right for elite golf competition.  Standing without walking for short periods like this thing would cause if used for golf would aggravate many more golfer's backs.

Let me repeat that

Standing without walking using the ginger for golf would aggravate more golfer's backs."  I'll stand on that one!  

It would increase the imbalance between muscle groups which leads to much of the golfer's back problems and generalized use would make back problems more prevalent in general users as well. Using a regular cart where you can sit is better than the position required for this thing.  Also if you use a cart and have a bad back alternate driving and riding or ride more if you are generally the driver of an automobile.  The sitting is good for your back if you do it right, it is the getting in and out from the driver's (left) side that really hurts your back.  We don't even want to talk about standing when you are already using your parasppinals and quadratus lumborum assymetrically!!!!

I guess I won't go out of business if people will pay me for back evals.

[Tony Ristola]

A pretty impressive series of inventions for a college drop out.  The Segway is interesting, but world altering?  Naaaah. Golf industry altering would be great, but seemingly unlikely.

I also thought of the repercussions of this gizmo if the prices came down and if it could be used on hilly properties without bogging down or sliding out from under you on wet turf.  It seems perfect for flat courses.

Because it is 3 time faster than normal walking, and it transports individuals instead of pairs this would speed play between shots.  The cost and ease of fueling is another attraction.  $0.10 per week is pretty affordable.  It plugs into a normal electric socket; that makes charging a simpler matter.  Storage space is greatly reduced.  Cleaning Segways compared to carts would be easier, faster and less expensive.  Less manpower and water would be required. At 60 lbs. plus the rider, compaction wouldn't seem to be a problem.  Vandalism of the Segway would be more noticeable compared with carts.  Cart paths, if eleiminated would save $250,000.  

Now he has to create one with a bubble shield and umbrella holder for nasty weather, and one for the tropical climates with a Cool Zone misting system.  

[Paul Richards]

Anything that can get cart paths removed from golf courses is a great thing !!

[Lou Duran]

Dan:

As an avid walker playing in an area where riding is the rule, any contraption which reduces the use of carts is most welcomed.  However, I seriously doubt that IT will make a dent in ridership.   For most people, carts are an important part of the golf experience.  They get to load their oversized staff bags with 14-20+ clubs, dozens of balls, umbrellas, rain gear, refreshments, etc., and have all sorts of electronics available at their fingertips (phones, Palms, GPS).  The riders can dash off to their balls and wait on the people in front of them all the while socializing and/or conducting business.  IT would take away from this experience.

While I agree that golf is best played walking, carts have some advantages.  When used properly, carts will speed up play considerably.  Those folks who ride and play slowly would generally be even slower if they walked.  At my home club, we have several 5-somes that can play in well under three hours.  Most walking groups have a difficult time playing in less than four hours.  I don't think that IT would help the walker all that much.  Disabled golfers may also have a more difficult time maneuvering, and unless IT also came with a seat, the problem noted earlier with being on your feet for hours is not overcomed.

Concerning caddies, not only is it difficult to establish a program in many parts of the country, the cost to take a caddy today, $40+, is not insignificant.  Carts are here to stay.  I just wish that they were not mandatory, and that architects would route courses which were friendly to walkers, make the cart paths less obstrusive, and keep them away from the lines of play.

Dan, congratulations on your decision to pursue the teaching profession.  I hope that you are still in the Dallas area.  God knows that we need some excellent History teachers here.  Good luck!



      

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Dan, the segway was shown in an alternative form on Southpark 3 weeks ago on its "I hate the airlines" theme show Naturally, they called the segway "it". While not the Simpsons or the Bundies, one has to give these guys credit for being ahead of the trends. Sadly, I have to reduce my clubs to 9 to lighten the bad for walking. It is fine and the score does not suffer.

[Rich_Goodale]

My invention will put the Segway quickly out of business.  It has tentatively been named the "Eglay."  Each golfer will be issued at birth with two Eglay's.  All that is needed for their maintenance is the occasional ingestion of Oodfay and Inkdray.  They can be stored at night in the Edbay as long as an Anketblay is provided in cold weather conditions.  They should normally be used in conjunction with Eetfay and Oeshay's.  The former will also be provided at birth and under my plan, Pro Shops will have an exclusive franchise to rent out the latter, just like at Bowling Alleys, to compensate for the loss of cart revenue.

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, don't forget the extra curriculars associated with teaching, like getting appointed as the school's golf coach.  I can just see that!  Dan King, varsity golf coach      

[Chris Hervochon]

Rj_Daley-
You are right...somewhat.  As a teenager who is holding down 2 jobs and high school, I know exactly what that job market you are talking about is.  I have a job at a butcher shop, where I am paid slightly over minimum wage, and I have a job at a driving range as a ball boy where I get paid very well, and the work isn't all that hard.  The reason why the businesses you refer to have trouble finding teenage workers is because, quite frankly, nobody wants to work for minimum wage after a long day of school at a job they dislike on crappy hours.  I know, I work like a dog at the butcher shop and I hate it.  Also, I don't know one caddy that gets minimum wage.  Most get $25-30 a loop plus tips, just about what a golf cart is.  Not to mention, caddies get paid in cash.  So, if you make $25 + tips, then u REALLY get $25 + tips.  In  my area, it is almost impossible to get a job as a caddy, b/c caddying is one of the best jobs there is.  Surely better than ground maintenance.  I live very near Pine Valley, and I know caddies AND ground maintenance people.  It is almost a joke how much money they make and kids fight to get jobs there.  Granted, it's an upscale private club, but you get my point.  Same deal at most other private clubs in my area.  My point inm original post was, not so much about youth caddies, but what about the people who are older and can't find a job?  You don't need to be smart to caddy, so a high school education isn't even a necessity.  What would the rebirth of the caddy do for those people?  At least they would be able to make an income.  Plus, we could get rid of those god foresaken cartpaths and finally be able t enjoy walking a golf course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've played with a caddie only 4 times in my life, but none of them was under 35 years old.

[Craig Disher]

A UK company may have beaten Segway to the punch. Last summer I saw golfers zipping around in what looked like a tricycle with a streamlined body. The one-man cart had a little rack on the back for clubs. Anyone seen one of these in the US?

Lou Duran,
"Most walking groups have a difficult time playing in less than four hours"

Got to disagree. Career walkers have no trouble playing in considerably less than that. In the UK, less than 3 hrs is typical, even for older golfers (70+).

[Lou Duran]

CD-

The sentence that you quoted and disagree with goes with the previous sentence, which begins with "At my club ...".
I am aware that golf in the UK is generally played on foot and under three hours.  I wish that we could adopt that practice, but, alas, most folks here consider a four hour round fast.  I suspect that if you Brits started riding (God forbid) you would play your rounds in two hours or less.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
Cart ball is not always that slow and yes, there are that many golfers who don't know how to effectively use a cart. They also don't know about letting faster players through, fixing divots or ball marks, etc..

A real estate based golf course would not sacrifice house lots even if a player had to walk a considerable distance to the next tee.

Cart paths can be made less intrusive. Many courses I know have paths only in the areas from green to tees.