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Kyle Harris

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2005, 01:35:47 PM »
Tom Paul,

Right, Schuylkill County is basically my home, and its no secret that once King Coal left, the regions been in decline. SCC represents a social era that's almost dead or dying, and it's great to think that so many of the people we revere in the game may have had a hand in it, even if most of them prove to be shadows in the night.

Think the people of Clementon who play golf are proud to have PVGC in their backyard?

I am proud to be within twenty miles of some of the greatest golf on the planet... but I share that with a host of other Philly golfers...

Golf is gaining popularity up in Schuylkill County, but it's only starting to get good public access courses. So very few people share the bond to the county and the love of the game as I do. It's great for me to see that some of my favorites may have had a hand in all this.

And that's my sob story for the day  ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 01:39:21 PM by Kyle Harris »
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2005, 01:37:31 PM »
Quote from: TEPaul on March 03, 2005, 01:34:32 PM
MikeC:

Meehan designed the first nine at LuLu? How do you know that? I didn't know even Steve Sayers thought that and he probably knows more about that course than anyone ever has.

Tom,

Steve actually posted the article here some months ago.  

I'll try to find it for you.

Mike
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2005, 01:41:18 PM »
Great stuff Kyle -

This all sounds very similar to a course we have had conversations with in Ohio.  They have an 18-hole Ross course, but 6-7 of the greens are from the original Park course.  Ross simply felt that the original greens were worth keeping and incorporated them into the routing.  The club is very accepting the Ross name but are now wanting to recognize the growing popularity of Park. The Tuft's Archives labeled the course, Congress Lake, the 17-hole course.  Ross' plans only covered 17 holes.  I speculate it was because Park finished on a Par-3 "Short" hole that is just great.

Kelly eluded to Ron and I working on Park courses and one thing we have seen is the similarity of Park greens (and Findlay or White for that matter) to the mid-twenties and later Ross greens or Tillinghast.  The internal rolls are very similar with ridges, rolls, bumps and tiers.  It is often times the horizons that differentiate the various architects.  I could certainly see that Park greens could blend in very well with Ross greens.  The difference at Shuylkill is that you have later Ross (post war) that really start to take on a modern look (changing constrution equipment), check out the 2nd nine at Silver Creek.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

TEPaul

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2005, 01:41:57 PM »
"What I found interesting were the bunkers that disappeared between 1938 and 1947 (e.g. the fairway bunkers on 1 and 2, the back green bunkers on 9)."

Craig:

Disappearing bunkers??? Well, all I can suggest is perhaps he was getting a bit tired at that point but maybe it was "principle compromising" Tillie who figured even though he ripped out near to 10,000 US bunkers of other architects for the PGA of America (according to Tom MacWood) perhaps he'd just rip a few more out as he passed by Schuykill G.C. late in his "principle compromising" tour!  ;)
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Kyle Harris

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2005, 01:51:53 PM »
Here are some more pictures from the past few years:

The first one is of the fourth hole, which is one of the Ross Holes.

The next two are from the original nine, the present day sixth, and present day sixteenth.





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Kyle Harris

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2005, 01:59:59 PM »
From Jim Rattingan:

"By the way our Ross sketches Date september 1945 with ross architect and JB mcgovern as Associate here are some examples.  In the hole by hole discription they call for every change as seen in the changes from 38 to 47 he also explaines what work he wanted completed in 45 and what work should wait until fall of 46. An example would be to move the original 3rd and 6th greens in fall 46. The holes at the left of the picture in 47 were not quite completed yet as you can see they were just finishing the drainge work as Ross wanted it done."
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JNagle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2005, 02:06:02 PM »
TEPaul -

There is no mention of the previous architect for LuLu, I wonder if an earlier article mentions the course architect.

Philadelphia Public Ledger
Sunday, May 18, 1919

Article By:    Franklin T. McCracken

Lu Lu Temple Country Club To Have Great Golf Course

‘New 18-Hole Course Designed By Donald Ross Will Furnish Stiff Problems for Golfers to Solve’

‘Several Gem Holes on Links at Edge Hill – New Clubhouse To Be Erected’

Loyalty of the golfers of the Lu Lu Temple Country Club at Edge Hill will be rewarded next season.  Nine holes stretching over country that enfolds a myriad of natural landmarks that add to the luster of the ancient and honorable pastime will be added to the course. The old nine holes are being reconstructed to fit in with the new architecture.  Forty-five hundred dollars will be expended on building the eighteen-hole course.  The mastermind of Donald Ross designed the new links and the work of building the course is under the supervision of Frank James.
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It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better.  The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; .....  "The Critic"

Mike_Cirba

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2005, 02:37:49 PM »
Quote from: Mike_Cirba on March 03, 2005, 01:37:31 PM
Quote from: TEPaul on March 03, 2005, 01:34:32 PM
MikeC:

Meehan designed the first nine at LuLu? How do you know that? I didn't know even Steve Sayers thought that and he probably knows more about that course than anyone ever has.

Tom,

Steve actually posted the article here some months ago.  

I'll try to find it for you.

Mike

Tom/Jim Nagle,

Please see Steve Sayers' first reply on this thread.  

Mike
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Mike_Cirba

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2005, 03:19:31 PM »
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 03:19:56 PM by Mike_Cirba »
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Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2005, 03:53:41 PM »
Did Ross plant the trees on the left of 16? In 1938 there are 3 or 4, in 1947, there are a line of them - although given the sizes of the ones in the photo, they might not be from the '40s.
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2005, 05:38:13 PM »
I happen to have a copy of the original Ross/McGovern plans dated September 1945.  They include all his typed notes (along with added hand written notes) for the changes proposed for each hole.  It is very detailed!
Mark
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TEPaul

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2005, 07:10:05 PM »
Mark:

Fascinating! Why did I know that J.B. McGovern would be skulking around again? It's a damn shame you didn't give those detailed plans you have of Ross/McGovern to Ron Prichard and Aronimink about three years ago. If you had today maybe they would have over 200 bunkers to maintain instead of what they have now!
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Intsey

Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2005, 08:34:59 PM »
If Mr. Frank James did the construction at Battle Creek for Willie Park Jr. and the construction at LuLu Temple CC for Donald Ross, what other architects was James involved with and/or did he do any solo projects?

Is it a coincidence or not, but why would these drawings from SCC (1922) have no name associated with them?  

In the club's research of local historical records, the only name referenced to this project was a "Mr.James."
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2005, 11:03:28 PM »
Tom,
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the plans I have are for Schuylkill CC not for Aronimink.  They are some of the most detailed I've seen from Ross.   Frankly, I agree with you in that I feel McGovern was quite heavily involved here.
Mark

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Mike_Cirba

Re: Schuylkill Country Club and Willie Park, Jr.
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2008, 09:14:55 PM »
Bump for those fans of Schuylkill and Willie Park
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