[Mike_Young]

Does anyone think that any of the courses ranked by any of the magazines have a maintenance budget under $700,000?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

There may be rare exceptions and/or unique circumstances, but, in general, I'd say no.

[Bill_McBride]

Look, Pensacola CC, hardly a top 100 but good solid private course, has $600,000 budget.  

[Mike_Young]

.Bill,
I understand.  That is what I am trying to get at ....the cost of being ranked etc and how they are different from the average course..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

I'm very familiar with a golf course that's sporty and fun to play.   A golf course not ranked in the top 25 or perhaps not even in the top 50 of the state it resides in, let alone the National rankings. Yet the greens budget is in the
$ 1,000,000+ range.

I've learned that it's almost impossible to compare budgets because each club does it differently.

Some clubs don't count employee health insurance in their green budget, choosing to line item them under administrative.
Likewise some clubs count 401K, pension and defered compensation packages on the greens budget, others don't.

Some clubs count employee meals in the green budget, other clubs assign that expense to their food and beverage or administrative budgets.

Some clubs use the green budget to tend to the clubhouse and tennis courts, others have seperate budgets for those functions.

Some clubs include capital expenses in their greens budget other clubs keep a seperate capital budget for those items.

Some clubs include cart revenue and expenses in their green budget, others don't.

I could go on and on, but looking at a green budget, in isolation from all of the other budgets at a club isn't helpful.
It's also not helpful to compare budgets unless you carefully extract each and every line item, analyze them and redistribute them properly.  Only then can you get a feel for a club's greens budget.

[ForkaB]

If you count "ranked" courses in the UK and Ireland you will will find numerous examples of budgets under $500,000, maybe even well under.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I can not give out actual numbers, but if you look at courses that are a little more "rough" you can figure out with course have $1,000,000+ or don't By my eye,these don't- Sand Hills, Wild Horse, Musgrove Mill, Kingsley, Crystal Downs, etc....

[wsmorrison]

"If you count "ranked" courses in the UK and Ireland you will will find numerous examples of budgets under $500,000, maybe even well under."

Rich,
It sure helps that for the most part UK courses use native grasses and are not engaged in an endless search for perfect turf that looks like Augusta 24/7/365 yet still can stand 30,000 rounds a year and all the remediation that is required.

Mike,
Newport Country Club must have the lowest budget by far of any ranked course in America.  

[TEPaul]

"Does anyone think that any of the courses ranked by any of the magazines have a maintenance budget under $700,000?"

In the last three or so years Wayne and I have been all over hell and gone getting into a ton of course and maintenance business at various clubs---generally making nuisances of ourselves and asking all kinds of pointed questions that people don't want to answer although we force it out of them against their will! There sure is one ranked course, probably two that has a maintenance budget under $700,000. But the thing is there's no way in hell either of us are going to tell anyone which it, or they are. Matter of fact we ran across one whose bunker maintenance budget may've been higher than the entire maintenance budget of that other one or other two!

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I have also seen maintenance budgets where a CMAA manager had emplyee meals, and everything else in it.  Hell these meals would be charged out at $15 a person so that F&B can look like its making money while golf is costing.  But in general , with few exceptions. if any, I don't think there are any ranked under $700,000.  Our club uses everything possible to make F&B look better.
TE,
I would assume you speak of a course in Charleston....if it is under, I'll bet not by much.
And Rich I agree on UK etc....different animal....
Anthony,
I think sometimes the "rough look" actually cost much more.....maybe
not all the time

But my point is that a public course trying to help grow the game and playing 40000 rounds would have to allocate $18 per round to maintenance at the least to have comparable conditions.  I just don't thhink this site appreciates or aknowledges the Moms and Pops out there that have figured out how to make this business work for the majority of golfers.  JMO

[A_Clay_Man]

Wild Horse probably qualifies. Maybe Josh can tell us himself.


I'd guess that some of those older more established clubs that have ideal maintenance melds would also qualify.

I heard one report that one of these top ranked courses spends 65k per hole. Like putting whip cream on horse pie.

[TEPaul]

"TE,
I would assume you speak of a course in Charleston...."

Carnak says,...........................

Come on Carnak, what do you say?

[Mark_Amundson]

Gentlemen:

It is my guess there are many courses with maintenance budgets under $700,000, both ranked and unranked courses.  We have our Championship course and a 9 hole par three course and are well under the above figure.  Types of grasses on the course make a huge difference and there are certainly regional differences in pay of superintendents, etc, etc.  I am a firm believer that maintaining a golf course in great condition is not all about money, much of it is about priorities and interaction between the super. and the owner/manager.

Mark Amundson

[Clay Huestis]

I have never been anywhere near the place, but wouldn't Fisher's Island, with no fairway irrigation, and thus giving rise to less weeds, disease, fungus, etc, stand a good chance of coming in under $700k?

And there seems to be great bifurcation (or trifurcation, etc.) in the golf world vis a vis maintenance budgets.  There are the top 5 or 10% that spend $700k, $1MM, etc keeping up with the Jones, but for everyone of those, there are at least as many Mom & Pops that can achieve 90 or 95% of the results on $250k a year or thereabouts.

In a dream world, it would be nice to see courses in the Top 100 set a good example for the rest of the courses, and in that respect I tip my cap to Fisher's and their resistance to installing fairway irrigation.

[Mike_Young]

Mark,
I agree there are many but not many that are ranked.  I think you would be the exception.  The course I play is 1.2 mill for 27 holes and people think we need more.  Of course I would expect to see the employee meals being charged in at around $25.  But that is not the supts fault.
Hope all is well.
Mike

[Mark_Amundson]

Mike:

We do not do any creative financing and only things that are directly related to maintenance end up in our budget.  We are south of $500,000 and have a high standard of conditioning, granted we do not have trees, lakes, and some other things that drive up the budget.  I am a firm believer that there is almost always $50-100,000 worth of fluff in maintenance budgets that can be removed by a great super with almost no impact on the conditioning of the course.

Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mark,

Are you enjoying your new "ranked" status (granted the magazines haven't even hit the mailboxes yet)?  Or is "proud" a better word?

Congratulations, by the way!

[Steve Curry]

As Pat discussed it always seems there are discrepancies regarding what is or isn't attributed to the maintenance budget.  

Mark,

That said I find it questionable that your course has a Championship 18 and a 3 par, 9 for less than 500k, all told?  I am running fairly tight for a seasonal course with a 8 month season for about 25k a hole/year.  And that includes everything but my cell bill, (I get that).

Steve

[TEPaul]

Since we're talking about budgets that are under whatever, how about budgets that're over whatever?

When I heard what NGLA's annual maintenance budget was I could hardly believe my ears. But you never know what goes into some of these budgets. I mean they may've been high anyway but if they happened to include Burrrow's annual beer and skirt-chasing budget in NGLA's annual maintenance budget the thing could've almost doubled!

[SL_Solow]

I have done some research on this issue in the Midwest.  Comparisons are very difficult due to the factors first mentioned by Pat.  Different clubs prepare their budgets in entirely different formats and include different items.  The manner of accounting for capital expenditures in equipment varies widely.  Many factors beyond maintenance levels and acreage may impact the budget e.g. types of soil, grasses, weather.  I note that many clubs are now employing as many as 2 or 3  assistant superintendents at relatively high salaries.  This is a relatively new trend which is driving budgets higher.

[TEPaul]

SL:

That's interesting what you say about more asst. supers these days. Probably so. But you know what I say---if you want to save a bit of money on man-power get yourself a super who gets dirty. That's what I like about Matt Schaeffer of Merion---everytime I see the guy over there he looks like he's been in Hog Heaven all day!  

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, why are you asking all these maintenance facility questions?

I'm wondering if you aren't like the lawyers who ask the questions already knowing the answers...  Are you trying to get this group thinking by coming through the back door?

[Mike_Young]

RJ,
You might say I am trying to do just that.
I am just trying to show how much fluff we have allowed to creep into golf.  3 and 4 asst supts.  Same for pros, then we have the maintenance facilities that cost what courses used to cost. And maintenance budgets.... We have been talked into all of this except the mom and pops that just keep laughing.  It just has to stop.  As Rich says you don't see it in UK.

[Donnie Beck]

Yeah, but we are not in the UK. You CAN NOT manage a course in the states the same way as they do over there.

[Anthony_Nysse]

A large part of budgets go into labor-If a course is walk mowing greens, tees and approaches-you're looking at 10 guys right there-minimum of another 4 if your hand-ranking bunkers, 3 on fairways, maybe a guy on a blower and 2 setting up the course for the morning-that is 20 without doing any details. (you need even more help if you're rolling greens, double cutting, having someone take care of the range....)If you're mowing with triplexes and machine raking bunkers, you can cut that number in half...

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