Road crossings

« **on:** January 16, 2003, 03:20:25 PM »

I was trying to find ammunition AGAINST laying out a new golf course so that it straddles a major development road. However, when I started going through my top 100 list, I got quite a surprise: 23 of the top 100 courses in the world feature a road crossing. (Not one of them, however, involves a tunnel.)

Even more amazing: four of the top six require you to hit across a road! (That's Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, the Old Course at St. Andrews, and Shinnecock Hills; National Golf Links is shamefully not among the top ten.)

My conclusion: road crossings are OK, as long as they don't involve a long walk.

« **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:28:00 PM »

I like your conclusion, but avoiding the long walk is not always easy, and sometimes impossible. I'm curious to see how you minimize the walk.

I avoided a long walk in a residential development by having the holes routed almost perpendicular to the road. One hole played up to the hole, and the next hole played away from the hole. The developer lost a couple lots, but for some reason he was o.k. with this. This shortened the walk from 600 feet to 300 feet. Not great but better.

« **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:45:05 PM »

Tom, my God man, you forgot Pine Valley (at least three paved road crossings and some other very cool ones like Philly Cricket, Pittsburgh Field Club, Piping Rock and a number of others, I believe.

Even little old Gulph Mills has a road crossing and this year they were threatening to remove the road because it chops up the look of our 3rd hole.

Over my dead body! If they try it I'm gluing myself to that road in front of the road wrecking machinery.

You know what I just found out? That road crossing our 3rd hole is a Colonial road and I just found out that George Washington himself traveled it and actually stayed in the house that was just to the right of our 3rd hole for six days in 1777 as he was moving his troops from Whitemarsh to Valley Forge. I'm not kidding about that--I'm completely serious--it's documented.

Not quite as completely documented is the fact George Washington knocked up the lady who lived in the nearby building (just to the left of our 3rd fairway) that is now one of our maintenance buildings. With my research ability I think I'm close to documenting that too particularly since I've been noticing some queer people with wooden choppers in the vicinity of our 3rd hole lately.

Anyway, cross the development road. I might even recommend you put a post and rail fence on either side of the road for golfers to hit over and cross through a gate on. A nice old fashioned touch sort of thing! Maybe they can have relief from the road and the fence but personally I wouldn't recommend it.

« **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2003, 03:50:51 PM »

TE: I didn't count Pine Valley because those aren't public roads. If you want to count driveways into the clubhouse, you could add about ten more courses to my count. (Brookline, for starters.)

In the routing I'm doing, I can't hit across the road. I'm trying to make the case that the entire golf course should be on one side of the main development artery, instead of split to both sides of it. They have enough ground to do it either way, but with the topography factored in, I can't see a solution which doesn't involve a fairly long hike. I know my clients don't really care -- they're developers -- but I'm trying my best.

« **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2003, 04:17:05 PM »

Is there a real upside to straddling the road? Better land so better holes? If they have the land, why not keep it all on one side?

« **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:09:22 PM »

Tom -

At Pebble, are you counting #16 as crossing the road or the back-back tee on #17?

The 1st hole at Stanford, up on a bluff, goes over Junipero Serra Blvd, a heavily travelled road. If you top your tee shot, you could plunk a car ...

Mike

« **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2003, 05:26:31 PM »

Tom,

St. Georges, in Toronto, has a tunnel from the clubhouse to the first tee (on the other side of Islington). Does that count?

« **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:16:12 PM »

How much is the road travelled? I think you forgot this one:

Road crossings are OK if there is minimal risk of auto/pedestrian accident. If not, tunnels might be a good option.

How do you think a tunnel effects the routing? If it detracts, exactly how so?

« **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:20:12 PM »

Tom,

At Bethpage Black, in order to get from the first green to the second tee, there is a small tunnel for use of the players that runs under Round Swamp Road. This is also used for those playing the green course as well.

Coming off the 14th green, one has to cross Round Swamp Road, with clubs in hand or on pull cart, while avoiding active traffic!

« **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:21:29 PM »

TD,
What about Lost Dunes? I hear that worked out pretty well crossing under the interstate. Just keep doing what is best on the site.

« **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:37:32 PM »

Played Lost Dunes in October. Lots of fun. Second and fourth holes were great. Only putted off two greens. The first hole plays across the access road..it worked fine and yes there is a long distance between 7 and 8 that goes under the interstate. Our group walked and the staff did a great job picking us up in a cart and riding the 1/4 mile to the 8th tee. What did not work for me was the interstate road noise. It was constant and loud (probably worse than usual without leaves on the trees). I guess I'm spoiled, at my home club I only hear birds and crickets. It is a significant blemish in and otherwise fine course.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:36:46 PM »

TEPaul-

The house right of your third hole was there for six days in 1777? We may have to re-write the history of golf in the U.S.!

Seriously, I've played lots of courses with road crossings. Often going from one side to the other signals a transition from one environment to another- hilly to flat (Farmington CC in CT., for example), or landscaped resort/development to desert (several courses in AZ and Palm Springs that I've played. If crossing a road helps such a transition, go for it! Sound's like that's not Mr. Doak's situation, though.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:41:09 PM »

Master P.....are you really the rapper? I asked this a while ago and never got a response. Yous wills always remines me of who guy who brought eubonics to the GCA discussion forum.

Why all the attitude brah??? We's cool

« **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:18:22 AM »

There seems to be lots of guys here posting courses that have road crossings, and the final count would probably be more than 25 of the top 100 courses, that have some sort of private or public carriageway in the midst of the routing, by the time it's all done.

Simply because some courses do have road crossings, isn't a compelling case to say that a course should cross a road(s). Imagine how good the courses and experiences upon those courses would be if they didn't have to have the crossing interfere...

In TD's example, he's not talking about the small road in and out of a course, like we see at Pebble, where one simply traverses a paved segment, to get from #15 tee box to landing area. He's talking a big, noisy, wide, high volume road, which seperates one green, and the next tee, by a reasonable way.

My experience has been that the roads significantly detract from the total experience, and enough such that they should be avoided wherever possible. The down-grading of Royal Melbourne East, by a large number of experts, is due to the road crossings, and it occurs despite the contribution of 6 high quality holes to the Royal Melb Composite layout, and many other quality holes on the other sides of the crossings.

Tom - I'd avoid it if I could, unless there's a very large problem arising in being contained on one side of the road, or if there is some sort of nirvana on the other side.

I know some will think - "the client is a land developer, so what does he care? I'll cross the road". I know others here will also think "this course bears my name and it will be the best it can be". I'm tipping you're the latter Tom....

MM

« **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:41:55 AM »

As indicated, road crossings are far more common than one would think. I'll add Ross' Belle Meade CC and Beverly CC, as well as Cascades and little Ansley in Atlanta. At my home course, we have an at-grade rail crossing.

Regards,

Mike

« **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:50:48 AM »

Matthew M: Contrary to your last paragraph, I think most golf architects would tend to say, "the client is a land developer, they don't know the difference, so I'll avoid crossing the road." I don't know an architect who would cross the road if he didn't have to.

However, the land developer client may see a benefit in having golf course frontage on both sides of the road. If so, I have to make the case that the road crossing will detract from the golf experience and their chances of having the course received as the best in the area. I was just surprised to sort through the top 100 list and see how many courses had road crossings ... most of them far more dangerous than what I would have to do, but not as disruptive to the round of golf because they don't involve a long cart ride or an even longer walk.

This developer COULD have opted for an 18-hole contiguous course with practically no housing intrusion ... they have about 500 acres at the front of their property which they're not allowed to put houses on. Now, they're trying to choose between nine holes on that side and nine holes among the houses, or 18 among the houses. I'm thinking of steering them toward the 18 with houses, to avoid the long gap between sides and to preserve the possibility of doing the course I wanted to do later on.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:02:15 PM »

Adding to the above posts...........

I can think of one course where a public road crossing was probably okay until the public road was widened. The resulting road work took some land from the course and affected the GCA.

I guess a public road crossing might not be bad if you have some land to buffer the road anticipating future road work. Potential road work must be hard to gauge in many cases.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2003, 12:20:15 PM »

Tom:

You have made me realize just how many roads we have to cross at MPCC. Admittedly they are itsy-bitsy things and could be considered private, but not many clubs have as many.

Dunes. Between Nos. 1 and 2
   " " 2 and 3
   No 6 off the tee
   " Nos 8 and 9 (Tunnel)
   " " 12 and 13
   " " 13 and 14
   " " 17 and 18

On the now defunct Shore there were four roads to cross.

« **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:02:02 PM »

Tom I think there is a huge difference between a road crossing and a road crossing lol. The traffic count may not only impact the crossing but a few hundred yards in each direction.

« **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2003, 07:12:38 PM »

If enough attention is paid to the crossing it can be quite OK, even acceptable. At oakmont, for example, the golfer is able to look down and say to himself, "Poor bast*#ds...all having to go to work or wherever..." In the best theatrical experiences we take an intermission. This brings us out of the theater and gives a moment to reflect on how lost we may have become in the performance itself. My advice: keep it away from the finishing holes and try to have it over and done with no later than 13 or 14. Of course I am assuming 18-holes. Tunnels can be really neat experiences. Again, they are thresholds of sorts.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2003, 10:23:50 PM »

Royal Worlington and Newmarket is another famous one. Not a busy road, more of a lane really, but still a public road.

« **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2003, 06:59:50 AM »

Paul -- Worlington has recently been pressured by the village to do "something" about the road crossing No. 9 prior to green -- but it was laughed off by all the powers that be. I believe there is a new sign, however, which cautions vehicles. Of course, if you've had plenty of the Pink Jug and go to leave you may wind up driving down No. 9 instead of crossing it.

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