[DMoriarty]

Patrick Asked:  Why isn't it a good idea and what difference does it make if the end product is a great golf course ?  

I'd be glad to discuss whether or not this is a good idea, but dont have time today.   Some of that came up in the previously referenced Lido thread.  

Our current conversation has been about whether one could consistenly praise NGLA and not Lido or Shadow Creek, or whether such actions were hypocritical.    There is no hyposcracy for the reasons above.  I take it by the change of subject that you now agree with me that one can consistently praise NGLA and not Lido or Shadow Creek, because of the difference of the magnitude of manufacturing behind necessary in each case.   Come on Patrick, admit you agree.  It might be refreshing to try something so novel.

Patrick Said: I'm glad you agree with him because Tom Doak has personally expressed that Shadow Creek is a very good golf course.

As I have said repeatedly, I havent played or seen Shadow Creek.   I'd like to see it because I have heard it is an engineering marvel, but beyond that I honestly dont have much interest-- at least at its price.  

I am aware of Mr. Doak's description in the Confidential Guide, and maybe I will agree with him if I ever see SC.  You arent suggesting that I simply accept Tom Doak's description as gospel without seeing the course myself, are you?  

If you think his description of Shadow Creek in the Confidential Guide conflicts with my paraphrase of him above, why don't you ask him about it yourself?

_________________________

So Tommy and Tom Doak disagree about Shadow Creek . . .  So what?   Apparently you think this means that Tommy's view is invalid, or somehow based on his bias.   Instead of blindly following Tom Doak, Tommy draws his own conclusion based on his own experience and observation.  But you use this as proof of Tommy's bias against Tom Fazio and Rees Jones!   Oh, the irony.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

My first question to those who claim it's artificial is to ask,
"how does it APPEAR artificial ?
"identify and define the artificial feature ?

The stock answer is that the entire course is artificial, constructed in a a barren, arid, desert flood plain.
But, they never answer the particulars.
The never answer, on a hole by hole or feature by feature basis, what looks artificial.

In the context of viewing manufactured works, it reminds me of all those golfers who claim that NGLA is so natural, until you take them behind the green.  This is the reverse, we know the entire course is manufactured, but, point out, specifically, where it appears so.

One person once said to me, I'll show you how it's artificial, just look at how you have to go through a tunnel to get from one place to the other.  I then asked them if they had ever played Oakmont, Bel Air or Canoe Brook ?  Bethpage Black ?

We know it's artificial due to its location.
But, if the golf course were in Colorado, Vermont or North Carolina, you might not notice it.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

When I say it seems sort of artifical to me I mean it looks sort of like a movie set to me. You know what I mean by that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Yes,

But remember, most photos were taken to maximize the VISUAL effect.

When you play it you may get a different impression.

You'll also wonder how those bunkers migrated from Ardmore Avenue, 2,500 miles, to the middle of the desert.

You'll also notice the need for a tree pruning/removal program as about 16 years of growth has narrowed the lines for a course that was already mature on opening day.

You should play it if you get the chance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Our current conversation has been about whether one could consistenly praise NGLA and not Lido or Shadow Creek, or whether such actions were hypocritical.    There is no hyposcracy for the reasons above.

That's not true.
The difference is that most don't have the "eye" to see the manufacturing at NGLA, and have only read about the manufacturing at Lido and Shadow Creek.  

I would also venture to say that if one had never heard of Lido and how it was created, and played it a few years after its creation, they couldn't detect any of its manufactured features.  As I said, the foot pad was manufactured, but after that, the golf course was built like any other golf course.
[/color]

I take it by the change of subject that you now agree with me that one can consistently praise NGLA and not Lido or Shadow Creek, because of the difference of the magnitude of manufacturing behind necessary in each case.

I think my answer above addresses that.
I don't agree.  They were all manufactured, the only difference is that most can't see it at NGLA and have only heard about it at Lido and Shadow Creek.[/color]


Come on Patrick, admit you agree.  It might be refreshing to try something so novel.

I think we agree on a good number of subjects, but, not this one.[/color]

Patrick Said: I'm glad you agree with him because Tom Doak has personally expressed that Shadow Creek is a very good golf course.

As I have said repeatedly, I havent played or seen Shadow Creek.   I'd like to see it because I have heard it is an engineering marvel, but beyond that I honestly dont have much interest-- at least at its price.

Why ?  Because you've been predisposed or conditioned not to have any interest in it.

Any golf course that comes on the scene and is immediately ranked so high, for a long while, deserves to be seen.[/color]  

I am aware of Mr. Doak's description in the Confidential Guide, and maybe I will agree with him if I ever see SC.  You arent suggesting that I simply accept Tom Doak's description as gospel without seeing the course myself, are you?
No, I was just offering testimony refuting your quote, from the very man you cited in your quote.

I recommend that you see it for yourself, then comment on its relative merits or demerits.[/color]  

If you think his description of Shadow Creek in the Confidential Guide conflicts with my paraphrase of him above, why don't you ask him about it yourself?

Your paraphrase is hearsay.
My quotes are the result of putting pen to paper,
from the horses mouth   [/color]

_________________________

So Tommy and Tom Doak disagree about Shadow Creek . . .  So what?   Apparently you think this means that Tommy's view is invalid, or somehow based on his bias.   Instead of blindly following Tom Doak, Tommy draws his own conclusion based on his own experience and observation.

No,  I don't think Tommy's views are invalid, but, I do think his views are tainted by his bias regarding Fazio's work that he's exhibited over time, time and time again.

For you to think otherwise is naive at best.

In addition, I believe that Tommy's only seen Shadow Creek once.[/color]  

But you use this as proof of Tommy's bias against Tom Fazio and Rees Jones!   Oh, the irony.

I didn't use his opinion as proof of anything.
He's entitled to his opinion.

I only cited his written words and previous pronouncements so that you could recollect his long standing and ongoing behavior pattern toward the work of Fazio and Rees.
A pattern that was and remains critical of all of their work, even the courses he hasn't played, like Rees's Quintero.

He has been highly vocal and visible with his criticisms so I'm surprised that you're not aware of them.

He claimed that Shadow Creek was repetition, repetition and repetition and Tom Doak claimed that variety abounded, yet, you blindly take Tommy's view as the Gospel.

I thought Juries and Judges were supposed to listen to all of the evidence from both sides before making up their minds.[/color]

[TEPaul]

"I would also venture to say that if one had never heard of Lido and how it was created, and played it a few years after its creation, they couldn't detect any of its manufactured features.  As I said, the foot pad was manufactured, but after that, the golf course was built like any other golf course."

Pat:

I'd say that probably was true of the Lido. I've always felt a golf course should try to look as "site natural" as possible. As for Shadow Creek, I'm sure it's a great golf course but I don't believe mirages are real but maybe you do.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're on the outside looking in.

Try getting on the inside and looking around.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
You're on the outside looking in."

No, I'm afraid not--I'm in Pennsylvania Toto.  

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