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Mark Brown

Secession
« on: February 22, 2005, 07:19:33 PM »
Mr. McConkey

Just lost a hole by hole of Secession - didn't save it

So here's the to the point version

Secession: great experience, love open breezy feeling, good conditioning, caddies,clubhouse,porch,Mike Harmon

Course
Poor holes -1,8,9,17(not in original Dye routing)
Ok holes -2,7,10,11,12,15
Good holes - 3,4,5,6,13,18
Great holes - 14,16

General thoughts:
Marsh makes a number of very unforgiving tee shots/holes, no recovery, big numbers
Greensites are not very interesting
Putting surfaces don't have much contour or drama
Little imaginative shot-making around the greens
Little strategic thinking and design features
Most Fairways have no interesting features or bunkering
You dont have to think your way around the course and plan shots. Fairly easy up and downs
If you stay out of the marsh off the tee you will score well Its not a multi-dimensional course

I think there's some good holes but not enough - too many blah holes. But I still think it's a fun and challenging golf experience.

Other opinions are fine, but please don't roast me personally. I have had enough of that today. Thanks

JakaB

Re:Secession
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 07:27:07 PM »
Mark,

I'm sure Secession has a hefty initiation...you mentioned earlier you were a member for three years.  How does something like that happen..

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Secession
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 07:48:07 PM »
How's this for a non-confrontational post: I agree, Mark.

Mark Brown

Re:Secession
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2005, 09:50:22 PM »
John,

It was good timing because the HHI area didn't have any private golf only courses with caddies when they started selling memberships at about $30K I believe. Also the original partners had good reputations. In addition, Pete Dye did the original routing and he wanted P.B.to design the course and the partners said no way, and they built it themselves. I don't think Bruce Devlin did enough (near the end) to have credit for the design. Also it was a nice Lowcountry site.
In reality, the site was not very roomy, probably about 130 acres.

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2005, 11:35:27 PM »
I apprecciate your honesty MR Brown, and though "I" do not agree with all of your comments, I do respect your opinion.

I will tell anyone this. Without mentioning names, I can think of no less than 15 tour pro's that can't wait to play Secession "Every Time" they are in the area.....I can assure you, that on the "average" windy Secession Day, Secession will give any "quality player" all he or she can handle from the back tees. The up's and downs around the greens at Secession are by no means "easy" and staying out of the marsh off the tee really isnt the problem, its being on the correct side of the hole.

Again, opinions are opinions, and while Mr. Brown is entitled to his, so am I.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Secession
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 11:42:01 PM »
Mr McConkey,
  In all honesty, that was one of the best posts I've read in a while....you have your opinion and repect others. That is what this DG is based on, not slamming people. Thanks
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 11:20:10 AM »
MR Brown;

I forwarded this thread to several of your "Former Secession Members", many of which you should be more than aware, hail from "Most of the Great Old Courses" and several of the "Great New Courses" in this country and abroad. I have been asked to post some comments for Mr Michael J. Ayrer, a Merion Member and a longtime Secession member. He had a hard time registering in order to post these comments.

Here are his comments:

"Jeff - I am having trouble registering.  Mark Brown makes some interesting points, and is entitled to his opinion.  Valid counterpoints can and should be made.  Please feel free to make them in my name.  I'll put his comments first."

1. "Most Fairways have no interesting features or bunkering"   :o            
                                                                         
                                                                           
It was already noted that the marshes offer a principal supply of hazard on the course.  Excessive bunkering along the fairways would imperil the fairness of the course.  Fairway bunkers are used at times and effectively to provide target lines for the players.  With the marsh, there is little need for penal fairway bunkers.      

2. "Marsh makes a number of very unforgiving tee shots/holes, no recovery, big numbers"    ::)                                          
                                                                         
As a double digit handicap, I have never had a problem with clearing the marsh, UNLESS:  I top or fan a shot, i.e., horrible swing, should be penalized.  For a course with no out-of-bounds, a horrible tee shot into the marsh effectively serves as out-of-bounds, comparable to white stakes at other courses.  Yes, OB leads to no recovery, big numbers, shouldn't it?            

3. "Greensites are not very interesting Putting surfaces don't have much contour or drama Little imaginative shot-making around the greens"      :-\            
                                                                           
To me, these three comments are basically the same.  There is a tendency today to "defend" a course against scoring with stern to outrageous green complexes (Chechessee is an example of stern, Stonewall New - outrageous, kept looking for the clown's mouth). Secession is straightforward in every way, a different philosophy, yes, than "defending" with severe greens complexes, but a valid one.  
                                                                           
If you want imaginative shotmaking around the green, Secession has plenty. Shots around the green can be played in the air or on the ground, shots over greenside bunkers from tight lies are challenging, and the marsh provides for an exceptional variety of greenside shots. Again, the marsh is a hazard that is in play on many holes, why add more hazards for the sake of saying we have X number of bunkers?      
                                                                           
Putting surfaces remain fast on a regular basis.  No there are not the dramatic swings in putts that you see at many great courses.  The greens are much more comparable to seaside courses in the British Isles, which typically have much less contour (Old Course probably excepted).  Wind again plays a factor, even on the greens.  The green contours seem most appropriate for a typically-breezy seaside course.

4. "Little strategic thinking and design features"     ;)                  

There are a number of holes, starting with one, where the player must decide how aggressive to be in crossing the marsh.  Two or three of the par 5's leave the option to "go for it" in 2.  Other par 4's include a safe side for a drive and an aggressive side, often depending on pin position, which is evident from the tees, due to Secession's open nature (#4, #6, #13, e.g.).            

5. " You dont have to think your way around the course and plan shots. Fairly easy up and downs"   :-X                              

I don't think this comment is really different from other comments about greensights and fairways, which have been addressed/previously.                                                        
FINALLY:

Re: comments about individual holes, I'll just review a few.  

Most of my guests really enjoy and are challenged by #1 and #8.  

#1 is visually intimidating, especially the first time on the course, but the fairway is wide and fair, the marsh presents a reasonable hazard, playable, with imagination from the right, just like a lateral hazard, unplayable, on the left.  The green is protected, bunker and marsh, as a short hole should be - reasonable test for an opening hole, plenty of chance to do well.                      

#8 offers various strategic objectives, because of the hazard on the right, and some interesting options on playing a second shot, if the "safe" tee shot left is a bit too far left.  Another favorite of many members and guests.                              
                                                                           
SUMMARY: In all, different horses for different horses, I guess.  I play a  classic course at home in the middle Atlantic states, with severe bunkering, contoured greens, OB, etc., and I love it.  Secession is different, primarily due to the marsh and other aspects of its fundamentally-seaside nature.  Both have their places as great    
golf courses.        


"Jeff- I will try again to register and provide these comments  directly, but, if I can't I would like you to relay them and use  my name.                                                          

Thanks for letting me know about this."       :D

So there you have it, some candid comments. I was happy to post this for him. Hopefully he will get registered at some point and be able to contribute to our GCA Forum.

McConkey III                          

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 12:29:11 PM »
One final note from me on Secession:

Secession is the kind of place that you have to visit time and time again to understand. As a "god friend" told me, "If you went to St Andrews and played and the conditions were benign, you just might not "Get It"....but if you stayed and played a week, and the typical weather rolled in, you would quickly see, and understand how the course is to be played and why it was designed the way it was....If you went to Sciotto and Muirfield and played both once, you might enjoy some of the "eye-candy" stuff at Muirfield, but if you played the two courses over and over, you would likely really see that Sciotto is a much more special place. On your first visit to Pinehurst #2, you might not "Get It" either, but after a few times around the course, you really would. Many members have brought guests to Secession and have point blank asked them, Do you like Secession or "xyz club" (usually a top ranked club) better, and the guests would often say, I like "xyz club", but several years later, after 4, 5 or 10 trips to Secession, seeing the course and club in a variety of situations, seasons, and conditions, they all end up liking "Secession" best.....Secession needs to be experienced over time, on multiple visits, to be fully realized, as a "Very Good COURSE"....however, only "One" trip is needed to understand that the "Overall Experience" is second to very few!!!

This is why the course will likely never garner the "higher rating"....as raters are in one day and out the next, and unless the course is seen in the "right conditions" , it isnt quite understood!!!

Thanks for reading.

McConkey III

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Secession
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 12:38:31 PM »
Some may be interested in this http://www.golfclubatlas.com/secession1.html if they didn't know it was here.

Mark Brown

Re:Secession
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2005, 02:38:42 PM »
Tony thanks for the pics. One thing it shows is a lot of straight edges on the marsh which doesn't appear natural, and your last photo of 17 is from the side which makes the green look twice as wide as it is.

Mr McConkey, Your post sounds a little like a threat but I won't take it that way. Also Iv'e played Secession at least 25 times, and I dont need an education. Thanks for taking the time to discuss Secession.

Mr Ayrer: thanks for the post. "Different courses for different horses"

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2005, 02:47:11 PM »
There is no "Threat" in there........you must be reading something else into it......I have already spoken to MH and several others at the club and have the complete scoop on who you are, where you came from, and what your deal is.....from all accounts, you are a fine person. So relax, sit back, and enjoy what life has "afforded you"

All the best

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2005, 02:48:51 PM »
By the way, apparently, nobody has seen you over there for 6 -8 years, at least according to the people I spoke with, so perhaps a return visit to see the changes made throughout the years is in order!

Mark Brown

Re:Secession
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2005, 02:56:36 PM »
nuff said

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Secession
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2005, 02:57:43 PM »
That looks like a real course dream to me.
I love the topography, and generally like a course that takes a little time to show itself.

-Ted

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2005, 03:01:59 PM »
Hey Ted, you need to Play it and then you'll really understand why it is such a great experience!!

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Secession
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2005, 03:26:19 PM »
Hey Ted, you need to Play it and then you'll really understand why it is such a great experience!!

I grew up in Long Beach, Long Island, and I've never found a type of topography that I like better than the "low lying salty marsh land" present on so much of the South Shore.

Some of the land in the Carolinas is the most beautiful that I have ever seen. There is something inside me that is drawn to the slow and easy lifestyle of the Low Country, and Secession really does look like my idea of a dream course. If I ever have the chance to play that course I will not pass it up.

-Ted  
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 03:27:16 PM by Ted Kramer »

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2005, 03:27:09 PM »
If you are going to be in the area sometime, give me a shout.

dsilk

Re:Secession
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2005, 06:45:13 PM »
I have been enjoying the sparring on Secession for the better part of a week now and it has given me ample distraction from the HST malaise that I have been struggling with mightily. In the spirit of full disclosure , I am a Secession member and I enjoy the "experience" immensely. Quite simply, I think that there are a couple of great attributes to Secession- the conditions (wind, tees) factor greatly into shot selection and missing greens (which I do frequently) always brings bump and run, pitch, chip or texas wedge into the equation. Also, it is seldom that one doesnt use all their clubs throughout a round. If there is a downside to Secession, it is that the course can be overpowered if conditions are benign. I would submit that Secession is not necessarily a great golf course as much as a fun course that aways plays differently.
Lastly, it is important to understand that as much as the golf course can stand on it's own merits, it is shortsighted to not extoll the atmosphere that abounds due in large part to Mike Harmon and his colleagues. While the 18th hole is a great par 4 finsher,  the veranda with rocking chairs and a transfusion is a pretty good reason t play ready golf.
Cheers,
DS

james soper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Secession
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 03:10:41 PM »
re hole no. 14, it was my understanding that pete dye had a different green site in mind ( located at the short game area ). supposedly this broke the camel's back. if that's the case, i agree with the owners. the short game site would have been too severe for most players to carry and hold the green. the  current green site works well.

Top100Guru

Re:Secession
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2005, 05:47:13 PM »
Good point, but "that" wasn't the straw that "Broke the Camel's Back"......that I can assure you.

Cheers!