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JakaB

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2005, 11:05:47 AM »
Paul,

Pebble is under 7000 yds....where are these long holes you are talking about....maybe it's the ocean view that is so scary that it just makes them seem long..

JakaB

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2005, 11:06:55 AM »
JB
no that is not what I am saying, but what I am saying is that if the ocean was a lake, the USGA would not condsider the site "special" enough for a US open..they tolerate the weaker holes because of the strength esthetic and otherwise of the other holes, take that away and you simply do not have a major championship venue..I dont really beleive anybody can disagree with that.

Ask the people at the goat track Hazeltine...Pebble is a thousand times better ocean or not.

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2005, 11:12:00 AM »
Paul:

The holes that have long approach shots also don't have THAT small greens.

8 is the exception - that green is rather small - but it's such a great hole otherwise that the small green seems to add rather than detract.  It's also far from unfair as it isn't THAT small.

But the only really long approach shots are on 9 and 10.. and those greens aren't very small at all.

All other approach shots are on the short side... par 5s are all gonna be wedges or a bit longer in the case of 14... 1, 3, 4 are all gonna be less than 150 in.... 11, 13, 15, 16 are the same... and all this is for a person of average distance, not a bomber...

Par threes go like this:

5 - long shot from back tee, average size green (not really small anyway)
7 - wedge
12 - long shot, but again, not that small of a green - lots of room right of bunker
17 - long shot, weird green.

So really 8 and 17 are the only greens that I'd call "unfair" and hell, each is such a great and/or quirky cool historic hole, I believe we can live with it.  

TH


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2005, 11:15:06 AM »
JB
I am not one to argue, but I am not convinced about that..
I played in the USGA  state team event at Hazeltine and thought it WAs about equal to PB IF  you take away the ocean.
I think Hazeltine has less weak holes{for a major} than does Pebble IF there is not the ocean.

Again all of this is of course silly because again Pebble does have the ocean and as such it is a great course.

I just think if we are really honest and think about the weak holes I already mentioned, the course does not stand up anywhere close to being a major venue..without the beloved Pacific....this really is a great hypothetical thread though :)

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2005, 11:17:16 AM »
Tom -- you are probably right, especially since I only played there once...I think the hole I am thinking about is 9, where there is a bunker short left of the green.....I just have it stuck in my head that the green seemed incredibly small...course maybe i hit a real weenie-ball off the tee, I'm not sure

and I definitely agree that 8 and 17 are fine because of their unique setting and shape, respectively...

I heard that they were thinking of elevating the 17th tee but Arnold told them to leave as is...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2005, 11:19:40 AM »
I am not of the position that they are bad, it just surprised me to read an opinion that thay were on par with St Andrews.

Please note that I excepted The Old Course.  I have seen some outstanding architectural features (not nearly as many as other Treehouse members) but I will never forget being totally dumbfounded when I first walked The Old Course on a Sunday afternoon in October 2003.  Its greens are amazing - literally in a class by themselves.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2005, 11:20:05 AM »
Paul:
Thank god for Arnold's power then.   ;)

Re #9, oh don't get me wrong, it is one stone bitch of a golf hole - toughest on the course.  But that's because you are inevitably faced with a very long approach off of some sort of downhill lie with bunker and heavy rough left, death ocean right.  So it's a very tough approach, for sure...

Only the green in reality isn't that small at all.  OK, perhaps it's smaller than most greens one faces today with 200+ yard approaches.  But it really just SEEMS smaller than it really is, because of all the surrounding trouble.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2005, 11:22:24 AM »
Please note that I excepted The Old Course.  I have seen some outstanding architectural features (not nearly as many as other Treehouse members) but I will never forget being totally dumbfounded when I first walked The Old Course on a Sunday afternoon in October 2003.  Its greens are amazing - literally in a class by themselves.  

Mike

Mike - why?  Please do elaborate.  And no fair using the "if you can't see it I can't explain it because you'll never know" card.  I want to learn.

I found the greens at The Old Course to be very cool because they are so huge... and very cool because there are very few sharp contours but lots of subtle ones... but I'm having a hard time putting them in a "class by themselves".  

Educate me.

TH

ps - greens that are in a class by themselves are perhaps 2...6/12... 7/11... maybe 18?  But the rest???
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 11:24:00 AM by Tom Huckaby »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2005, 11:25:19 AM »
Mike

Now you're getting attacked from both sides. >:(

My mistake about PB greens on par with St Andrews, fair enough.


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2005, 11:26:11 AM »
 :o  all I know is it sure scared the s__t out of me Tom, so it worked!!

and I believe your Gov. is trying (has done!?) to get cars in your state to pollute less, so he does get points for that

and don't get me wrong:  I am definitely not saying we should not consider non-politician types ...jeez. look at the messes that"professional Politicans have left us with

and we've even had a few --just a few -- political scandals in Chicago...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2005, 11:27:35 AM »
Paul, you are far from alone in being scared sh*tless on #9 PB.  Last time I was there it was into the wind and I just laughed at the futility of it all.   :'(

TH

JohnV

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2005, 11:28:00 AM »
Mike,

Please explain your logic behind the 16th hole match..

It's simple.  Rich and MANY others have said re 16CPC replace the ocean with a toxic waste dump and the hole becomes a long hard carry with a pussy way to go around and no good reason to do so.

And the 8th at Pebble wouldn't be the same?

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2005, 11:28:36 AM »
Mike

Now you're getting attacked from both sides. >:(

My mistake about PB greens on par with St Andrews, fair enough.



JES - same question goes to you re TOC greens... I will take education wherever I can get it... do you consider them to be in a class by themselves and if so, why?

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2005, 11:30:06 AM »
Mike,

Please explain your logic behind the 16th hole match..

It's simple.  Rich and MANY others have said re 16CPC replace the ocean with a toxic waste dump and the hole becomes a long hard carry with a pussy way to go around and no good reason to do so.

And the 8th at Pebble wouldn't be the same?

Absolutely.  I'm sure Rich's take on that is just the same.  "Laid up to 175 in, simple downhill 6iron to left of gree, ho-hum two putt, somebody wake me up when I get a hard shot."

 ;) ;) ;)

JV, hopefully you are getting that I vehemently disagree with this type of assessment.

TH

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2005, 11:31:31 AM »
Tom

Unfortunately I've not seen them in person.

Anxiously anticipating the day.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2005, 11:36:57 AM »
That is one of the scariest shots in golf..200+ into the breeze and or wind..downhill lie with all the crap right and the big pit short left...what a great game.

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2005, 11:37:25 AM »
Tom

Unfortunately I've not seen them in person.

Anxiously anticipating the day.

Damn.
I am VERY opened to enlightenment here.  I've been lucky to play that course several times, absolutely love it, only have always thought the greens were the least great part of the equation.

TH

JakaB

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2005, 11:40:37 AM »
JB
I am not one to argue, but I am not convinced about that..
I played in the USGA  state team event at Hazeltine and thought it WAs about equal to PB IF  you take away the ocean.
I think Hazeltine has less weak holes{for a major} than does Pebble IF there is not the ocean.

Again all of this is of course silly because again Pebble does have the ocean and as such it is a great course.

I just think if we are really honest and think about the weak holes I already mentioned, the course does not stand up anywhere close to being a major venue..without the beloved Pacific....this really is a great hypothetical thread though :)

Michael,

There is really very little room for logic of that type from someone who has played both courses....God only hopes you never played Pebble in competition also..I'm losing my footing here.  So...you mention the weak holes of Pebble not being as weak as those at Hazeltine....How does that matter if the great holes at Pebble are all so much better than the only good holes at Haze....I mean...how many holes really come into play at a major championship....7 or 8 a day...the rest are just mechanical masturbation for the great player..

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2005, 11:43:35 AM »
JB
I fold .....the masturbation word has got me laughing so much..I give in to you the master!!!!

A_Clay_Man

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2005, 11:51:09 AM »
mmmmm, does that mean some of those greens are unfair???

UNFAIR?

Please define?

DMoriarty

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2005, 01:28:53 PM »
Which course would serve the golfing world better without the views.  . . . Pebble could host a major without the Ocean...Cypress can't with..

You've really confused me.   First you want to know which would serve the golfing world better.  Next its which can host a major without the ocean.   Then later it is which is better architecturally.  

Make up your mind Barney.  

JakaB

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2005, 01:42:51 PM »
David,

How could a golf course in Iowa serve the golfing world unless it was architecturally strong enough to hold a major championship.   The architecture at Cypress is sadly out of date....somehow Pebble is still timely.   Who would have ever thought a couple of nobodies would design greensites that stand the test of time while the great Dr. let time pass him by..
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 01:43:41 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

DMoriarty

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2005, 01:50:25 PM »
Barney I wont get into the greensite discussion other than to say you obviously are even more full of shit that usual.  

"Architecturally strong enough?"  You were quite clear on your "Pussy" thread that all you are looking for in a US Open is that the pros get beaten about the head, thus your admiration for a course like Torrey.  But absurd difficulty and architectural quality are not necessarily related.  

By the way, Pebble's greatest defenses are its heavy ocean air and unpredictable ocean weather.  Same goes for Cypress.   Not necessarily the case in Iowa.

THuckaby2

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2005, 01:50:59 PM »
JK:

So ability to hold major championships is the one and only, be all and end all criterion of greatness in a golf course?

That's one interesting take.  Thank God more people don't feel that way.... we'd have a world full of way too many bitchly-hard, not much fun courses.

You are so far off on CPC's greensites it's actually funny, btw.  But you are doing a great job of trying to access the place... odds are someone is gonna get you out there just to show you how wrong you are... so well done there, my friend.

 ;D ;D

JakaB

Re:Cypress vs Pebble....in an Iowa cornfield..
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2005, 01:54:41 PM »
Huck,

No...holding major championships does far more to serve the golfing world than letting a few architectural pundits out to play.   No course in the world serves golf better than AGNC no matter how few of us ever will get to play it...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2005, 01:55:13 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »