most polarizing courses????

[TEPaul]

Sean:

There is nothing in America golf that can be called "common" ground the way some courses have always been in Europe. Over here things just never evolved that way. There's also not a single course over here I've ever heard of that has multiple "clubs" formed that use a single course such as TOC has always been. It's not exactly that America is trying to be different from Scottish courses that way---it's just that it didn't happen that way over here from the beginning. Of course, that rather elementary distinction is completely lost on a guy like Rich.

[Sean Leary]

In terms of the Old Course, it seems that everyone who loves it has played it numerous times under different wind conditions.  When I played it last summer, there was virtually no wind, the tees seemed up a little, and it played so short I couldn't gain any appreciation for any of the par 4's or 5's.  Since it was the only time I played it, I really can't say whether I thought it great or not.  

[Kyle Harris]

I would say any major championship set up.

It seems that fields for majors are either really bunch with some outliers each way, or just way spread out. It always seems like for every 64 in a major, there are 10 85s or worse.

Of course, this could be a function of the field over the course in and of itself, as the Opens and Masters always feature some premier amateurs, and the PGA a few club pros.

[Pat_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I felt the same way too--loved the courses, but thought the experience fell a bit flat.  

Based on the hype, when I went there (2001) I was expecting some sort of culturally integrated golfing Shangri-la, a la so many of the fine golfing venues in Ireland and Scotland.  

Instead, I found just another CCFAD, stuck on the outside of (and very much separate from) a relatively average old coastal town.

The golf was great, the company wsa great, but there wasn't a sense of wholeness, at least for me.

While it may have been easier to create very good golf courses, it's very difficult to create hundreds of years of tradition, history and ambiance in a lumber town with no prior connection to the world of golf, let alone the birthplaces of golf.

I suspect, that if more spartan accomodations existed, that the urge to travel, stay and play would evaporate rather quickly, as those making the pilgramage aren't doing so for the history, local culture or centuries of tradition.

It's a different environment, and shouldn't be compared to the environments in the UK.[/color]

Paul Thomas,

Spanish Bay

[ForkaB]

"It's a different environment, and shouldn't be compared to the environments in the UK."

Pat

As I tried to say above in a later post, the only reason I was comparing the environments was that the Bandon PR machine was strongly hyping the comparison when I went there.  Thus, they were fair game, IMHO.

Tom IV

Continuing on my Jacqueline Susan theme (or is it morphing into a James Bond one.... ), I have never said "no desire" re: Sand Hills.  I've just noted that it's VERY hard to get to, particularly in my circumstances, and realistically I may possibly never be able to get there in my lifetime.  If so, this will be a disapointment, but not one which might lead me to considering an HST strategy.  There are far too many great courses out there which I will never play, as well as far too many great ones that I will play, but not often enough......

TEP

I was wondering who put on that sign!

[Gerry B]

agree that the overall vibe / experience at Bandon / Pacific could have been better - but both courses met or even exceeded my expectations -after all I was there to play golf.

Baltusrol Lower -did not get what the fuss was all about - and many others that I have compared notes with agree.

[PThomas]

Gerry -- what do you think is missing from the Bandon experience?  I've been there twice and REALLY loved it both times

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  fair enough re Sand Hills, makes sense.

But you did pooh-pooh both of the others, continue to pooh-pooh Bandon, tend to pooh-pooh all courses except those in your new home and those that not many people have heard of (think Applebrook)... your contrarian nature remains firm and quite well-established.

But just like being gay, it's not like there's anything WRONG with that.  

Paul - I'm with you re Bandon.  Those who come away wanting more from the experience there are either firm and established contrarians who expect Scottish towns and their multi-century histories to be recreated in America, or those for whom anything but the Ritz is a let-down, methinks.  I loved the experience in every possible non-golf way - food, rooms, pubs, hell what else does one really need for a golf trip that isn't there at Bandon and done perfectly?

TH

[PThomas]

yea Tom, Bandon seemed pretty pure golf to me:  no big swimming pools, etc...stayed both times in the rooms in the Clubhouse buidling and thought that was great to be able to stumble down the stairs and right out to the first tee

also great cause I was able to sample MANY different kinds of the Scottish malts then be able to stagger to my room, which was esp important since I don't ever drink that stuff!

[Pat_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I don't know that you can blame them for trying.

The concept behind Bandon was a gamble, a risky and costly investment.  Add to that it's remote nature and you might understand the "shotgun" attempt to appeal to a broad spectrum of golfers..

I would imagine that they were trying to appeal to those golfers who might be classified as destination golfers, the ones that go to Scotland, Ireland and England.  And as such, couched the experience in the terms you presented.

While the "experience" may have come up short for you, the golf courses appeared to have satisfied your standards.

To those that are attracted to Bandon by the reputation of the golf courses. the PR or hype isn't important.

Let's not forget that this is a commercial venture, in a galaxy far, far away.

[BCrosby]

Is a course like TOC "polarizing" if you have in the pro camp:

Colt, Allison, MacD, MacK, Travis, Ross, Behr, Thomas, (Tyre, Trent and Rees) Jones, (Hugh and Dick) Wilson. Maxwell, Dye, C&C, Doak and so forth,

and in the con camp you have:

Scott Hoch and a couple of guys on GCA?

That's not a polarizing course. That's a course that is loved and respected by almost everyone who has thought much about it.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Pat

Please do not try to pretend to be so naive so as to believe Mike Keiser's ~2000 hype!  He could then (and still can) fund many Bandon's out of his loose pocket change.

As Lee T. once said, risk is when you bet $10 with $5 in your pocket.  MK had several hundred $MM+ in his pocket when he "bet" a few MM on BD.

You're a businessman, Pat--you know this is true.

[Gerry B]

Paul:

I was defending it. Some of the complaints that I have heard are that the rooms, etc are  are ok but not the same vibe as the Lodge, etc. at Pebble. I thought the cottages at Bandon were ok - but trying to compare them with Pebble is a stretch. Then again the price point is different. The dining room did have a very good wine list - some fine vintage cult cabs at reasonable prices and drinking  / playing cards with some of the caddies in the pub was fun. I will sacrifice The Tap Room, Pacific's Edge,The Sardine Factory, Roy's, etc. anytime for those 2 magnificent layouts. Golf is is  the primary reason one goes to Bandon.

In fact I am going there again at the end of March for 3 days-heard the weather could get nasty at that time of the year- who cares - will be great. Pure Golf is how I would describe it.

Also looking forward to the opening of Bandon Trails later this year.  Kohler, Wi is a 90 minute flight and a short drive from Toronto and given the choice I would still choose / endure the 6.5 hour flying time plus layover to Bandon on a bad day.

Kudos to Mike Keiser's vision and passion

[PThomas]

Gerry -- thanks for clarifying.....I don't really care much about "other stuff" like fancy rooms, fancy restaurants, etc..when I go on a true golf trip, which describes Bandon pretty well::  great golf, good accomodations (not Posh, but I don't sit there and read a book), a place with good food (don't drink wine, so can't comment on that)

hope you get good weather in March...unlike the person who posted recently about when he went with his family (I can't remember which one)... a great story ...I'm thinking of a November journey myself.....

have you been to Kohler?  4 pretty good courses there, not cheap either, although they do have some early season specials usually...2 GREAT clubhouses that are great to eat in and have a beer in..

[Pat_Mucci]

Rich,

No businessman wants to lose money in any venture,
no matter how much he has, especially when egos and reputations are involved.

I doubt that Trump wants to lose money with his course in WPB, and as such, hypes it beyond its relative merits.

I'm not so sure that Mike Keiser is directly responsible for the hype you allude to.  Many firms out source that task to PR firms.  I also doubt that Mike Keiser selects the menu and linens as well.

I went to Bandon for golf and wasn't disappointed.
I also liked my accomodations, and the resort in general.
But, then again, my expectations were in the narrowest context, golf.

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