What is the Role of Municipal Golf????

[Kyle Harris]

That implies that the government had that money in the first place. There is a big difference between withholding money and having it spent.

Furthermore, you argument implies that the government shouldn't subsidize my student loans, or my future kids, or my past 14 years of education.

At what point do you draw the line between "promote the general welfare" and "socialism."

Just food for thought. I feel your argument is inappropriately generalized.

[Cliff Hamm]

  Should we abandon all of our parks and recreation departments?  WE should not.  However, government should.  Government has improperly usurped a private function and should get out.   Elton John can then rename Goodbye Yellow Brick Road to Goodbye Yellowstone Park

Why should our government have the power to compel you or me to fork over hard earned money so that others can use stuff that fits into what they want to do, but that we don't? There has to be a valid reason for government to take from us ... and government has to make an awefully strong and compelling case to be able to take it away. Like weapons of mass destruction and the imminent threat of being attacked?

[Lou_Duran]

Cliff,

My apologies for previously addressing you as Clint.  It was late at night.  I am sorry.

You are absolutely right.  We do see the role of government quite differently.  Ideally, I am much closer to my learned friend Shivas.  In practice, I seem to be mid-way the two of you.

People have become accustomed to having their lifestyles subsidized by others.  Not that it would make much difference, but perhaps we should substitute "your other hard-working fellow citizens who pay taxes" for government every time we put our hand out.

We are not going to wean the American people from the "your other hard-working fellow citizens who pay taxes" (government) teat.  Whereas John Kennedy once posed the very profound idea, "Ask not what the country can do for you, but what you can do for your country", the mindset today seems to be more like 'what have you done for me lately you greedy, selfish, "winner of life's lottery" SOB'.

Past generations relied heavily on themselves, their families, the church, and then government as a last resort.  Today there are scholarly books by Ivy League professors advocating the virtues of dependency.  One of these makes very elegant, nicely worded arguments that self-reliance and independence are myths; that the natural order of things is dependency.  Social justice is defined not in terms of opportunity, but of results.  You know, "money for nothing and the chicks for free".

The muni golf project that Mike Young describes is hardly unique.  I know of a couple similar situations in north Texas. I have been personally involved in the defense industry and helped a major government agency through a banking crisis.  The stories I could relate would make some of you extremely angry.  And very little of this was done with bad intentions.  It is just speculation on my part, but for every Enron, World-Com, Tyco, etc. there are multiple examples just as bad or worse in the public sector.

Shivas cites public education as an example where government has been an abject failure.  The thing is that those who can do for themselves will adjust.  They'll forgoe the $600 car payment on a new car every two or three years, clip a few coupons for groceries, save and invest whatever is left over after paying God and Uncle Sam.  Their kids go to private college preparatory schools.  Some are home schooled.  

The real sad thing is that the less able just get deeper and deeper into the hole.  Instead of being taught how to make a living, they are chained to a life of dependency.  I believe that this is so unnatural for people that their defense mechanisms have to kick-in to rescue their ego.  Anger, belligerence, negative attitudes, chip on the shoulder, apathy are but a few of the behaviors that too many American-born poor people exhibit.  Little that government is doing now is helping these folks break the chain and lead a happier life.

Bottom line, we probably can't reverse the process of government intrusion into places where it does not belong.  With the progressivity of the federal income tax system now resulting in 50% of the population paying little to no income tax, I am not optimistic that we can arrest its growth.  Someone once said that our doom will be when the other half of the population realizes that it can just vote itself another benefit or entitlement.  We may not be that far off.

So, my prescription is for government to keep what it has that is affordable and widely used.  To divest itself of assets that do not meet this criteria and give its citizens a tax break (yeah, right!).  To pursue future economic development very cautiously, always keeping in mind the effect of the proposed project on current businesses and local taxpayers.  To spend the taxpayers' money like it was their own.

But why should they listen to me.  Government is like any other living organism with the instincts of survival, procreation, and growth.  It is just in its nature.  Minimalism is not in its vocabulary.

Whenever I read of our forefathers, I am always awed by the clarity of their thinking and their recognition and foresight that the beast they created would devour the rest of us unless it was closely guarded and most carefully restrained.

With all due respect to our European friends, I don't want this country to become like the EU.  I don't want to hear a drunken teenager cry in desperation that he has no future as I did in Scotland.  I can't believe that a low-growth, high unemployment economy can be good for the human spirit.  Nor can I think that it is healthy for kids to live a signifcant portion of their adult lives with their parents.  Trading freedom for security is just too high a price for me.

My apologies for going on so long, and getting so far from the subject.

[Cliff Hamm]

Lou...Just thought you were trying to make my day or perhaps Million Dollar Baby was on your mind with the academies this weekend...Anyway, I will avoid an depth political debate.  I can't agree, however, that municipal golf courses, etc. leads to "People have become accustomed to having their lifestyles subsidized by others"  I will continue to use my example of public beaches.  I really don't think having public beaches is synonumous with a welfare state.  The same goes for public colleges, parks, tennis courts, etc.  I simply don't believe that going for a walk in Central Park, is subsidizing my lifestyle.  

To bring it back to golf.  I also don't believe that public government golf courses should subsidize my round of  golf.  Government run golf courses should not be losing money.  I should be paying a greens fee that at a minimum covers the cost of golf and possibly benefits other recreation activities in  the community as well.  

My simple belief remains that municipal or whatever government entity has always offerred recreational opportunities to its citizens and I do believe that is appropriate.  High end - no. A decent golf experience without the frills - yes.  I concur with Matt Ward who has articulated this position over and over and quite welll.  

[RJ_Daley]

Oh geez, Shivas and Luigi, you guys and your "get government off our back" routine...

I too agree that government has a natural inclination to grow unless we the people apply checks and balances, from time to time, if they don't loose their power to vote and change their leaders to the mega corporate oligarchial forces that seem to buy and sell the legislators.

Taking education out of the public sector of various local and state governments.  Are you both nuts?  What would be left...company schools with philosophies to perpetuate an coroporate oligarchy; parochial theocracy oriented education; home schooled anti-social isolationists?

Your views of no government oversight or stewardship of public lands, recreational, conservational, reserve resources of water and flood control, etc. leaves the public in more peril, more turmoil, more seething discontent between the haves and have-nots than any imagined benefit of less taxation. (for those with anything earned in sweat shops to tax) Savings through less of your proclaimed mismanagement of tax and fee funds expended by these municipal, state, and federal agencies would be a pitance IMHO.  It is up to the people to oversee the mismanagement part of the equation to throw the rascals out when it naturally goes overboard.  That is why we have the elections; if we can keep them from being rigged!

A land where there are corporate campuses provided by corps., whose first obligaton is "profit" where recreation may be provided at the lowest cost factor to the corporation users, perhaps only for the enjoyment of the few remaining employees that still work here (rather than overseas in virtual hard labor camps of the ideal balance between supply and demand labor economics).  You can bet there would be executive and laborer segregated fields of play too.  This all paints a stark picture in deed for quality of life among the unwashed, unemployed, un-connected, unprivileged, un-indoctrinated by company school, un-christian educated, un-employed, un-acceptable to corporate ideals masses that would grow exponentially in your world of no government provision for the basic decencies of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.  Corporate, private beaches, ball parks, golf courses, swing sets, playing fields, dog runs, nature walks that's the ticket!

Any thing maintained to any acceptable and usable standard would be reserved for the elite, and the barren dirt tracks, dirtiest beaches, fields on the cap of corporately polluted fields would be left for those that have some ticket to play.

One other thing my friend Lou.  While I, also a father, can understand the pride you express in your son's hard working and industrious efforts, I'm afraid that I can't see the long term benefits of extolling the virtues of, or conditions you state your son works under.  90 hour weeks, seldom sees the light of day, is not in my opinion a source of pride or example of opportunity to participate in a great society.  That leaves the poor fellow 10 hours a day to sleep, eat and do his bodily functions, and 1 hour more per day to "think" and just do for himself and family obligations.  At such a rate, you sadly will probably outlive your son.  This sort of work environment is not a marker for an improved condition of life in our society.

Dr. Daley's prescription:  Tell your son to play one round of golf every week or two at a not too expensive, municipally operated, or private course, which ever he finds most enjoyable. He will live longer and be happier...

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

The first income tax was introduced to fund the Civil War, it quickly got swallowed up in the Andrew Johnson administration. As for foreign involvement, that dates back much further to Jefferson and Adams. While then it mainly dealt with pirating and the French/British impressment of US sailors... it established a precedent of American presence in such areas as the Mediterranean and GIUK gap.

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

I teed it up, you knocked it 280 down the middle... bravo

[Lou_Duran]

Dick,

Now I know what happened to the student acitvist involved in the U of Wisconsin bombing who hasn't been heard from since.  He became a cop, a union leader, and a wacko socialist who likes to play and talk a little golf in his spare time!

Your fear of corporations is frightening in itself.  What do you want, that we all push brooms or cut grass for the government?  The profit motive which you seem to abhor is what makes the economy work and why people have jobs.  Unfortunately, the only thing many Americans believe is good about corporations is that they pay our wages and a large portion of our health care.  Capital and investment?  Screw the greedy capitalist pigs!

To be clear, I never suggested taking public education out of the public sector.  I would like to see more competition in that segment and believe that vouchers to better performing private or public schools could work.  BTW, what's the name of the D.C. public school that Chelsea Clinton attended?

Likewise, I never said that government should get out of public golf.  I do believe that it should not be involved in anything much beyond the starter, rudimentary level, unless there is a need that the private sector is not meeting.

Your concern for my son is heart warming.  I too am a proponent of smelling the roses while as you stroll along life's highways.  I only brought him up because he is not that unusual in the career he is pursuing.

The folks on Wall Street make an extraordinary amount of money for which they work extremely hard.  They also pay a disproportionate amount of their income in taxes so people who want to lead a more relaxed lifestyle can have their college education, leisure activities, and golf subsidized.

I guess that my views of fairness and expectations from the collective are much different than yours.  Why paying one's own way is such a radical concept is rather puzzling.  What is the deriviation of the right to confiscate another human being's product for my own benefit?  Talk about selfishness and greed.
 

[RJ_Daley]

The folks on Wall Street make an extraordinary amount of money for which they work extremely hard.  They also pay a disproportionate amount of their income in taxes so people who want to lead a more relaxed lifestyle can have their college education, leisure activities, and golf subsidized.

Lou, I won't go into most of your post, because it is simply too exhuasting...

But, on the above quote, I can't help but notice how you always hold the big money groups up as some paragon of work ethic and virtue.  Yeah, many on Wall Street and Corporate America work very hard indeed.  No arguments there.  But, to suggest that it is a universal work ethic and that compensation is fair or comeasurate with the work expended is not quite so universally true.  There are plenty of "relaxed" lifestyles being enjoyed by some very overpaid, over-compensated executives and officers allowing them and affording them to enjoy an inordinate exposure to the good life, and yes, memberships in some of the most exclusive golf clubs known to man.  Oh  BTW, their executive assistants, their minions and salaried workers work hard too.  They just didn't play all their cards and connections to the extent that the very small number of highly compensated elite have done.  Some of it wasn't all that hard of work for some of the "masters of the universe" either, such as being born to a company major shareholder family and so forth...  As an aside, I don't just hate all corporations, hell I am like most folks who try to save a buck and invest it, winding up a shareholder in some of those big corporations who I hope make a decent profit.  So I am not opposed to the profit thing either  I just oppose unbridled greed manifesting through unchecked illegal and unethical practices and economic injustice perpetrated by the elite upon whom ever they can gain advantage over, including the so-called "owners" of their corps, the shareholders.  That whole shareholder thing as owners really has lost its luster in these times of astronomical executive compensation governed by directors in an inbred star system of nominations committees, compensation committees and so forth.  The game is rigged Lou, had you heard about it yet?

That stuff about paying ones own way... I don't know if you meant to imply that I am of the group that want to lead a more relaxed lifestyle.  But, come to think of it I am.  I just want to assure you that by electing the more relaxed lifestyle, I didn't require you or any other aggrieved taxpayer to pay OUR government any more than we collectively have so far determined by electing those WE have so far put into office these many years to tax and spend and subsidise selectively.  As a matter of fact, I have been dumber than you.  I have never taken a deduction for mortgage interest, investment interest, property depreciation, or the meriad of corporate tax loopholes available only to those with a lot of ping, and confess that my only tax break, has been capital gains exclusions.  I want to assure you that over my productive years, I didn't prevail in getting government subsidies anywhere near the extent of almost any of your heroes of corporate America, or small business America, etc.  I just worked (yes I worked   ) like many others, saved, and paid my fair share.  I never got firmly into the government hand out game.  I also paid cash for my education (got screwed ) and for my kids (got screwed again ).  No government educational grant programs, etc, non-academic scholarships, etc.  

Come to think of it, the only golf I got subsidized last year that I can think of was one round at Reynolds Plantation on the strength of your "business" contacts.  Hell, I don't know any big real estate moguls and such to get myself a freebie on my own.  Yup, I paid for every other round last year, that I can think of, with the exception of one freebie at Wild Horse just because they like me...

[RJ_Daley]

No arguements with any of what you say Dave.  I'm not a babe in the woods in terms of acknowledging public servant corruption.  But, who corrupts the politician-bureaucrat crooks.  Is it the fellow that goes to work every day down at the machine shop, or cleans the building you work in?  No, it is big money interests, looking for a legislative or regulatory pass or tax advantage/loophole or non-enforcement of a law that they are breaking, or want to alter just for their advantage.

The role of municipal golf in all of this... a place that gives some measure of assurance to the lower income people that want to have the goodness of life of pleasurable excitement to participate in a sport/activity that isn't just bouncing a basketball around some drab crime infested neighborhood court, or experiencing a walk on some decent measure of green grass and nice surrounds without getting mugged.  

Perhaps munis are a learning ground for less experienced and less name recognition archies that have a learning curve on dealing with all the local politicians and working with special interests.  Whatever muni golf is, it is needed, and always has been since the game became popular.  You don't expect to have millions watch the Masters, Opens etc., and then not be able to emulate their own Walter Mitty dreams because there is no local low cost public venue, do you?  

Yes, there are still the local mom and pop operations, but very few in large urban areas where the zoning and tax burdens are too much to overcome by private owner-operator economics.  The advantages of off-the-tax rolls, use of muni workers, etc., can not be matched in the private sector.  The inequities that presents to the local private operator have always been a factor.  These same competitive inequities exist with many other enterprises where local or state government, or even feds compete in concessionaires and a multitude of other areas...  and there are political hacks, patronage arrangements and largess in almost every one of those public "enterprises".  Stop the presses!

[Cliff Hamm]

It would be interesting to note whether those posting are biased by where they play golf.  I for one often frequent the local munis, which includes a fine Donald Ross course which is just rough around the edges, and am thankful for the government subsidy  

[RJ_Daley]

Cliff, I admit that I am bias in my views due to my own situation.  At home in Green Bay, I play a county owned course that is absolutely wonderful.  Oh yes, it could be maintained more firm and fast on a consistent basis, IMHO.  But, it is a very good design (Ed Lawrence Packard) full of shot making tests, and priced right.  The county built a new clubhouse that is first class and leases the operation to a local restaurantuer who had a learning curve about his expectations VS realities of operating a good restaurant associated with a golf course that has strong men's club, women's club, league, and many local tournaments activity.  But, all seems to be working out well.  My other experience is with the Madison WI., public course system which has pretty good golf (no where near the quality of Brown County) but has 5 muni courses with one being 36 holes, and a muni pass that is priced right.  Milwaukee also has a strong muni system, although the munis in the venues under the site of the GMO (Brown Deer Golf Club) are not too noteworthy.  In eachof those areas, the local operators of rudimentary courses compete with the muni's.  Since Madison private operators have built 8 new courses +a couple more in planning, priced competitvely for the area, and the county leased the land for another next to the airport, I assume the market hasn't been destroyed by competition with the strong muni course system there, nor Milwaukee with the same scenario.  

Wild Horse, my other home course is something like Lambeau Field, funded by a local share offering.  And there, a minimal lot sales on the outer boundary of the course.  But, it is in essence a community effort, something like what my understanding of places in Ireland like Connamara might have been organized.  All of these examples obviously offering golf to the common - lower to middle income golfer, who can't afford country club fees.  

Yet, some very well off wealthy folk that know value when they see it also play at our Brown county course rather than belong to the two stodgy local CCs.  I play a regular men's club 4some+ alternates with a couple of gents that could have multiple memberships at many high end facilities if they so desired.  But, they like what the muni course and scene has to offer for commeraderie more than the CC ambiance.  I'll bet Adam can cite similar folks and motives at Pacific Grove.

[Jeff Goldman]

Something is wrong here, because on this one I (basically in agreement with D.Moriarty and G.Childs on most things) I am with Lou all the way.  Muni golf was founded when the almost all other golf was private and not open to the general populace.  Ergo, a lot of muni golf courses were created in the early part of the century, by local municipalities, and clearly appropriate and worth preserving.  Jackson Park used to do a huge, huge number of rounds in Chicago as did the others.  Also, muni golf was built by munis, and therefore not subsidized by folks of another state or territory where there would be little or no use.

HOWEVER, that time is over now.  In chicago, there are a pile of newer gov't owned CCFADs which do compete with private ones and have no business doing so.  Bolingbrook, Stonewall Orchard (I think Gov't owned), Thunderhawk (Cantigny too, no?), etc. etc. all relatively new, all near $100 to play, all damaging to private enterprise.  A very few newer cheapie courses have been built here, the most notable being Shepard's Crook in Zion, a couple miles from Thunderhawk, and $35 to play by non-residents, less for residents, but they are a small number.  Gov't has no business competing where private enterprise is operating (just like cities shouldn't be giving in to blackmail of sports franchises for tens of millions in subsidies for stadia and such just so entertainment dollars can be shifted from the movies to sports).

Of course I think Shivas is full of it too, thinking that the feds waste all of their money on Opera, and that gov't has no business supporting culteral endeavors of any sort, or anything beyond an army.  By his reasoning, the world would be better off without Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. etc., any symphony orchestras should be a thing of the past and the world would be better off without Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller, or any of the arts.  None of these would exist without gov't subsidy.  Neither would any museum, so he wouldn't care if we had any dinosaur bones to look at, or if the Gettysburg battlefield was turned, like so many civil war battlefields, into a Neiman Marcus and a Wendy's.  Similarly, I suppose all of the monuments in DC should be sold to developers (the Lincoln Memorial is on especially valuable real estate), and the Arizona Memorial should be a water hazard for a golf course and a dumping ground for the effluvia of pleasure boats.  That's a country worth fighting and dying for.  

[Gary_Mahanay]

Mr. Duran & Mr. Daley,

This is fascinating to read about the differences that you both have in this matter.  I thought that I was in Lou's camp until RJ started in and made some fine points, now I'm not so sure.  What I'm really wondering is what the conversations are like when the both of you are out exploring the "Sandhills" during your quest to find the perfect place (situation) to build a great course?  If someone could be in the backseat with a camcorder recording these thoughts and then make some kind of Ken Burns type of documentary, I bet Harvard business school or PBS might pay good money for this wisdom.

Gary

PS.  Lou were you one of the voters that placed Vaquero as the #1 course in the state in the Texas Golf section of the DMN?

[Cliff Hamm]

Jeff  - are you supportive of government run golf when it is not high end?  For example, the $35 greens fee you note.  There is a difference in being totally against any government run recreational facility or being supportive of government run recreation when it is more at an entry to mid level.

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, I think that in our diverse views of this subject, there is plenty of room to compromise.  I also agree with you that the muni has no business in the CCFAD market, where 100+ green fees are the going rate.  That is clearly not in the realm of the common man seeking to participate in a wonderful sport that shouldn't be for just the priviledged few.  There is simply too much value in golf on both the physical, mental, social and semi-spiritual side for it not to be offered to everyone who might be interested and to only be available only to those who can afford $100+ green fees.  That is not and can not be left simply to market forces due to urban land values whereby low enough cost venues could be developed privately.  It must be a function of government, just as a viable parks system.  I can't believe any right thinking person could actually believe that private enterprise can or would provide enough park and recreation facilities to offer the quality of life expectation that we ought to have, being one of the richest nations on earth.  

As an aside, I was recently told (not confirmed by myown research) that as an example of corporate welfare, the state of Wisconsin, has or had a program where 40 acres of land was exempted by some sort of mandate to local tax districts from payment of all property taxes so granted to any insurance enterprise (both health and property and casualty operations) that would locate their headquarters here.  YIKES, and Dave and Lou are worried that a muni golf course is competing with the sanctity of Adam Smith free market principles!  the insurance industry, now there is a financially hurtin bunch...

I don't really believe that Dave is saying to privatize the museums and community cultural venues.  We have had extravagant public forums since the Greek theaters and Roman forums and Hanging Gardens of Babylon.  There is no tradition in any advanced culture I can think of where the public resource, even slave labor in ancient times wasn't considered proper expenditure for a public forum of entertainment or play.  

[RJ_Daley]

Gary, you don't know how close you actualy are to reality.  Luigi and I have spent days traveling across the prairies sand hills, and Georgia pines, and rooming together having our discussions late into the night.  We haven't strangled each other yet!  

But wow Gary, are you implying I might have a future as a pundit who could actually convince you or another to come over the fence?   hmm... "the ragin cajun"  or "bullheaded cheesehead".... nah    

[Matt_Ward]

What's so amusing about this thread is how certain people take umbrage at the government spending money on recreation while they can easily access their private domains for pleasure. These same people have no inhibition in then writing off their expenses (which I and others cover) at these private domains -- talk about speaking out of both sides of one's mouth.

So much chatter about "growing the game" but little real support from those whose lives are soooooooo far removed from Joe Sixpack and his associates. Muni golf -- particularly places like Van Cortlandt Park (the first public course in the USA) in the Bronx, NY symbolize, at least for me, a desire to do what RJ just mentioned previously. My father grew up in the Bronx and many of my early rounds were played at such places. My appreciation for golf stems from knowing what the average "Joe" and "Jane" routinely face.  

In simple terms -- I don't know of anyone who is against muni golf at a low level of costs which do not actively compete against higher income type courses (affectionately known as CCFAD's). If a single stand alone muni charges a max of $50 I don't see that being an issue for nearly all parts of the USA.

Eric Bergstol -- one of the more successful golf course developers in the greater NY area said no less during the recently held Winter Conference in New Jersey.

I'll say this again for the deaf and dumb ears that may not be listening closely -- the fall of golf is not tied to the muni course. That's a scape goat mentality -- the real onus should fall upon groups like NGF which called for the creation of one course per day just a few short seasons ago.

The golf falloff is wider and deeper drop-off with today's generations (the "X" and "Y" groups) which Peter Hill (President of Casper Golf) alluded to during his speech at the Winter Conference. Unless people really move away from the "blame the muni" mentality the future of golf is not going to examine what is truly holding back the game we love.

Now -- I urge all those pro-government and anti-government forces to resume their tennis match of volleying back and forth.

[A.G._Crockett]

Shivas,
I've been busting my hump in public education for the past 31 years.  At the present moment, I teach Macroeconomics, so I'll mention just a couple of quick facts:
 
1. Tax revenue in the U.S. as a % of GDP is lower now than it has been at any time since the end of WWII.  The idea that Americans are greatly overtaxed is crap, at least relative to the rest of the industrialized world.  You CANNOT factually back up any claims to that effect.  Just because people repeat that mantra constantly doesn't make it so.

2. ANY college econ textbook, including the ones written by conservatives like Gregory Mankiw of Harvard and the White House (currently) will tell you that the primary economic role of government in a market economy is to correct "market failures", chief of which is the lack of public goods provided by the market system.  Both recreation (in the form of parks, hiking trails, bike paths, lakes, and so forth) is a textbook examples of a public good.  (You probably remember "The lighthouse on the dangerous coast" example of market failures; the point transfers quite well to recreation and education, though it becomes a bit tenuous with golf.  Education is actually an externality market failure, but that's splitting hairs.

If you are seriously arguing that, as an adjunct to an argument against muni golf, we should also not have public recreation or education, you are advocating a return to a time in our history that nobody but you misses!  Whether or not we should have muni golf is debatable, but public recreation and education?  Please...

As a public school teacher, I always find it laughable that so many in the US bite the hand that fed them and helped them along the road to economic success in later life.  You must have gotten your education, which has to have been at least 19 years, ALL in the hallowed halls of private schools.  If that is in fact the case, then you must surely appreciate the accident of birth that made that possible; if not, then who DOES get the credit for providing you with educational opportunity?

Finally, I'll invite you to spend a couple of days with me in my very public school.  When you see what we are actually trying to do, and what we are actually getting done, you might feel differently; it may have been awhile since you've actually been in a public HS.  Just let me know if you want to spend time with the kids that are just learning English, or the kids who are profoundly handicapped, or the autistic kids, or the kids headed for the Ivy League.  We've got 'em all, and we'll be teaching the hell out of them beginning tomorrow morning at 8:40, and not one other country in the world is even attempting it!  Stop by; we're there every day.

By the way, Atlanta's muni courses are few and hardscrabble; I can pretty safely guarantee you that Matt Ward is correct when he says that the CCFAD's are losing a dime to those courses.  The golfers there simply would not be able to play but for the munis.  NOBODY, but nobody ever tried to decide whether to go to Tup Holmes GC in the city (where golfers have been robbed and shot) or head up to Bear's Best for the $100 weekday special.

[Lou_Duran]

Gary,

Unlike our Liberal friends, most Libertarians/Conservatives are tolerant of those who view the world differently.  This doesn't mean that we don't think that they're full of s---, it is just that we are secure enough in our beliefs that we don't have to call them stupid, little Hitlers, greedy, selfish, narcisstic, etc.  Historically we didn't dish it out nearly as much as we took it.  Starting with Newt, that has changed and the Lefties don't like a bit of their own medicine coming back to them.  BTW, can you name the last Republican president who was not characterized to be an intellectual lightweight by the Dems and the press?   A clue: he was better portrayed as a sleez ball  and crook.

As mistaken as Dick clearly is about most political and economic issues, it is impossible not to like the fellow.  Come to think of it, that applies to gca as well, but to a much lesser degree.  We just look at the world differently and that is that.  I understand his background and experiences.  Hopefully he understands mine.

Regarding Vaquero, it is not my #1 course in Texas.  

[Lou_Duran]

A.G.,

I was not aware that it was economics textbooks which determined the correct roles for government to play in our society.  For some reason, I thought that that was done in our founding documents.  Of course, as a complete product of public education, I could be wrong.  Galbraith and Krugman prescribing the limits of government is one scary thought.

In regards to your comments on taxes, I hope that you are not teaching your students that nonesense.  Perhaps you also pointed out to them that state governments have greatly increased their spending, therefore the taxes they collect.  Ditto for counties, cities, and school districts.  You may have also mentioned that fees such as on motor vehicles, permits for development, mandatory pet registration, etc. plus taxes on services such as telephone, garbage collection, cable, etc. have gone sky high.

And what do you use as your criteria for proper levels of taxation?   The "rest of the industrialized world".  Please!!!  Do you really want to be like the EU with its indemic unemployment problem?

Do you show your students who really pays federal income taxes in this country?  That some 50% of the population only pay about 5% of the taxes?  Do you discuss the implications that in a democracy where the majority rules and where half of the population can vote itself an entitlement without personal cost, that perhaps this might constitute tyranny?

These may be political issues but they have profound micro and macro economic impacts.  Hopefully, you are giving your students both sides of the argument and let them decide for themselves whether taxes are too high, too low, or just right.  It may also be instructive for your students to ponder what it is that is more important to them: physical security or freedom.

[A.G._Crockett]

Shivas,
I don't want to burn up bandwidth when I don't think we have any common ground here, so I'll agree to disagree on the taxes, etc.  (Though I am right, of course...)

Two minor points:
I chose Mankiw's text because he is extremely conservative, unlike Galbraith and Krugman.  Mankiw has been on loan to the White House from Harvard for the past 4 years, and his book covers market failures.  In fact, Adam Smith spoke of it in 'Wealth of Nations", though without the terminology.

I DON"T teach harder in public school that I would in private school, and never made that claim.  I DO claim that the acceptance of whomever comes to our doors in the public schools makes our mission a very different one.  The results of our end-of-course tests, SAT's, and so on, are skewed by the presence of students in the sample who are simply not ever going to be in private schools (i.e., learning disabled, limited English proficiency, etc.)  There isn't another country on earth that is attempting what we are attempting in its public education system.

How this relates to the role of govt. in offering golf courses to  the public is still uncertain to me.  I'm guessing, though, that I am going to be somewhat more sympathetic to munis in a market economy than you.
 

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,

I was not aware that it was economics textbooks which determined the correct roles for government to play in our society.  For some reason, I thought that that was done in our founding documents.  Of course, as a complete product of public education, I could be wrong.  Galbraith and Krugman prescribing the limits of government is one scary thought.

In regards to your comments on taxes, I hope that you are not teaching your students that nonesense.  Perhaps you also pointed out to them that state governments have greatly increased their spending, therefore the taxes they collect.  Ditto for counties, cities, and school districts.  You may have also mentioned that fees such as on motor vehicles, permits for development, mandatory pet registration, etc. plus taxes on services such as telephone, garbage collection, cable, etc. have gone sky high.

And what do you use as your criteria for proper levels of taxation?   The "rest of the industrialized world".  Please!!!  Do you really want to be like the EU with its indemic unemployment problem?

Do you show your students who really pays federal income taxes in this country?  That some 50% of the population only pay about 5% of the taxes?  Do you discuss the implications that in a democracy where the majority rules and where half of the population can vote itself an entitlement without personal cost, that perhaps this might constitute tyranny?

These may be political issues but they have profound micro and macro economic impacts.  Hopefully, you are giving your students both sides of the argument and let them decide for themselves whether taxes are too high, too low, or just right.  It may also be instructive for your students to ponder what it is that is more important to them: physical security or freedom.

Lou,
The "nonsense" I'm teaching is just whatever mainstream economic theory in the country happens to be; there is an exam in May (Advanced Placement for college credit) that my students will be taking, and the results of which will be used to evaluate my performance.  The exam reflects mainstream thought.  I've got no agenda other than them making 3's, 4's, and 5's and getting credit.  Sorry...

[Lou_Duran]

Sean,

Please tell me that you're not implying that the popular, dominant media has a conservative bias.  One other poster is convinced of that and he lost any credibility he had with me.  

As to Mr. Nixon, I know no one who denies his dark side and who defends him.  You may not recall, but unlike the Dems and Clinton, it was the Republicans who forced Nixon out.

Regarding Mr. Carter, I like the man but not his politics.  His work with Habit for Humanity is highly laudable.  His time as president was disastrous, and his post presidency political forays haven't been much better.

If I had only one choice to have dinner with a president I would pick the one who you disrespect so much, George W. Bush.  On second thought, maybe it would be Kennedy so I could ask him what possessed him to betray the Cuban expatriates at the Bay of Pigs.  What political convenience did this man choose over the lives of so many people?

[Ted Kramer]

I'm about 4/5 through with my 2nd reading of Atlas Shrugged.
**I can guess as to who's side Ms. Rand would be on.

-Ted