Harding Park info pls.....

[scott_wood]

my feeble efforts at gca search yielded nothing (can anyone post a link?) of past discussions here.

"The Golf Course" says Jack Fleming, who helped MacKenzie design many of his Cal courses, was the designer. And I remember reading of Venturi and Miller's playing there, and a little of the recent upgrade/renovation  to hold the Tour Championship, and a tbd possible Open.  

Am playing soon, and would appreciate more input, especially of the recent work....

[David_Tepper]

There have been multiple discussions here about the facelift given to Harding Park, including pictures. Most of the posts were made shortly after the course re-opened, which is at least a year ago.

As I understand it, the renovation/restoration of Harding Park was handled by a GCA who is on the staff of the PGA Tour. The reception of the job done on Harding was less than enthusiastic by a number of GCA-posters.

Personally, I think the course is enormously improved from its prior state and, as a resident of San Francisco, I am very grateful for that.

[Bill_McBride]

Scott, click on "Search" above, type in "Harding" (no quotes), hit enter, and soon you'll have more information than you ever wanted to know about Harding Park.

[scott_wood]

Mr McBride, you are my Sunday hero...I've been putting QUOTES on all my searches...to little avail....reminds me of the old Roberto DiVicenzo (sp) @ 1968...." me stupido"...

[Joel_Stewart]

I wouldn't get your hopes real high.  Harding is a decent course but its no Olympic or San Francisco Golf Club.  A few holes on the back are very nicely framed and you get the feel of the area.  
The course does have a long history but it now a shadow of itself having been bulldozed by hack architect Chris Gray of the PGA tour services.  The fairways are like bowling alleys, there is containment moundings everywhere, the greens have no classical style and should be on a resort course and worst of all is the lack of surface drainage which is now these fake mounds to funnel water.  I believe this years AMEX will be a one shot wonder for Harding since no one wants to deal with San Francisco politics for a half ass golf course.

[Rick Shefchik]

My wife is going to San Francisco on a business trip for a weekend in April, and she wants to play one round of golf while she's there. I recommended Harding Park (not having played it myself, but have read numerous stories and threads about the restoration.)

Is there a better choice for her in San Francisco?

[John Keenan]

One other course your wife may enjoy in SF is Presidio Golf Course. On the safety scale it is a 10.

Harding is quite nice desipte what has been posted about it. The price is a bit steep but given the money problems in SF not a shock.

If time is an issue she may play the 9 hole course at Harding Fleming.

Huck and Benham may have some other insights as they too are Bay Area residents.

[Rick Shefchik]

Thanks, redanman. That's what I figured.

I wish I were going with her.

[Evan_Green]

Joel-   I couldn't agree with you more. Not only were the greens poorly done, but the bunkers are as bland as could be. Futhermore, almost from day 1, weeds have been encroaching the grass all over the course. And of course far too many of the players there have no respect for the course and dont repairs their ball marks.


It's a good deal for SF residents at $40 and all of that, but every time I play it I get a bit sad that they blew a great opportunity here.

[Evan_Green]

One more thing for anyone who plays at Harding:

take great care while on the 9th tee to watch for slices coming from the par 3 8th. In the 6-8 times I have played the course, 1 member of my group was hit and we had 2 CLOSE calls. Very scary experiences. Needless to say I try to get off of that tee ASAP.

[THuckaby2]

Concur with the others here re Harding - a missed opportunity it is.

But I just wanted to add another safety warning... players on the 2nd tee - especially those playing the back tee - are VERY much in danger of pulled shots into 1 green.  Be wary.

TH

[Peter_Herreid]

Scott--

I'm not sure I would carve out time from a cross-country trip to play Harding, if a number of any other possibilities were realistic options.

I think has been an interesting exercise for those of us former and current Bay Area residents to play the renovated Harding, to compare it to the former incarnation.  I'm not sure I would term it a "missed opportunity", however, because I'm not sure there was ever any realistic chance it would be ever be anything more than what it is now--what chance was there with the City admin. and PGA Tour involved?  

Is it currently better than what it was 4 years ago?  I would say yes...however, I would think that before the decade is out, there will be more similarities than differences between the newer Harding and the older...

I would put in another point for the Presidio.  Quirky, and somewhat repetitive in parts, but "location, location, location"--I've been getting e-mails about special greens fee pricing that brings it back closer to a more realistic figure...

Lastly, for "in the City-limits" golf, that is truly San Francisco and no where else, let's not forget the wild, quirky, irritating Lincoln Park.  I would argue that it has more of a "sense of place" for an urban course than anywhere else.  Not a great golf course by any stretch of the imagination, but there is no mistaking exactly where you are!

Peter

[THuckaby2]

Peter:

Good point.  It's a missed opportunity in the fantasy world thinking that we'd get a fun interesting course at Harding.  In reality that was indeed never going to happen.  And great point re how it's going to be in 10 years, also.

As for other SF courses, Presidio does remain a good call but it too is very expensive and it's a pain in the butt to get a tee-time there.  But I'd favor it over Harding anyway... it's way more interesting, has way better greens, is way more fun.

Lincoln is a trip and has been discussed many times in here... go there only with your sense of humor firmly attached.  But heck yeah it is worth seeing.

TH

[John Keenan]

Huck re Presidio I must add the pricing is getting better as is tee times. I also get the weekly e-mail specials (lunch included in some) if you want the url let me know i will forward over.

On Harding, as someone who grew up in the City and played there as a child I am impressed with how much better it has become. I admit to being bias. In the old days it did have a certain quality and charm that I am not sure exsists today but the overall course is in far better shape. The issue that all raise is can SF city gardners keep it up. I understand now they are not useing city workers due the the Oct tour. but after that who knows.

[David_Tepper]

Having played the Presidio regularly for 16 years, I would be VERY reluctant to send anyone there during the winter/rainy months. The course holds water like a sponge and is probably just awful right now. It will not dry out till mid-April at the earliest. My guess is that Harding is in far better shape right now and will stay that way  thru the entire year.  

[THuckaby2]

JK - I get the Presidio specials also - thanks.  Just kinda tough to expect a visitor to hone in on those, that's all.

DT - thanks for conditions update - I was basing this just on general knowledge of the two courses as I haven't been to either this year yet.  But if Harding is that much better, than Harding it is for the visitor.

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

All -- In terms of logsitics, which course would be easier to get to from a hotel on Union Square -- Harding or Presidio?

[John Keenan]

If she has a car it is really a toss up as SF is small. Harding is a bit farther out but when driving the distance is quite small.

On the cab front  Iwould bet the cab ride to Harding will be rather high.

[David_Tepper]

Rick-

It is certainly easier to get to the Presidio GC from Union Square. It is a simple drive and/or a $12 cab ride.

Harding Park is in southwest corner of town, about as far away from Union Square as you can get and still be within the city limits.
My guess is it is a $20-$25 cab ride.

DT

[Evan_Green]

Concur with the others here re Harding - a missed opportunity it is.

But I just wanted to add another safety warning... players on the 2nd tee - especially those playing the back tee - are VERY much in danger of pulled shots into 1 green.  Be wary.

TH

Good Point Tom, I have had some close calls on #2 also. That might even be objectively more dangerous than #9

[Tim Taylor]

Ok, I feel like an out-of-towner has to come to Harding's defense here.

Harding is not that bad of a course. Yes, it is expensive for out-of-towners, but this is San Francisco we're talking about. Everything is expensive. It's easily walkable, not that hard to get to (getting ON is another story...), and pretty fun to play. If you pick the right tees you'll hit most every club in your bag. It succeeds at what it was designed for - providing a challenging venue for the public golfer. Could it have been more? Sure, but then you'd be looking at even more $$ and much longer rounds as hackers hit it in 6' deep bunkers and four putted the greens.

As for the comparisons to Presidio - I like them both but I've always found Harding to be in better shape - something about the US Park Service severly limiting the chemicals that Palmer Golf can use on the course. Additionally, Presidio doesn't drain at all. Expect a lot of plugged lies. However, you'll be hard pressed to find a prettier city course than Presidio.

For a fun course not too far from San Francisco take a drive over the Bay Bridge to Metropolitan in Oakland or a quick sprint down 280 to Crystal Springs in San Mateo.

TimT

[Joel_Stewart]

It succeeds at what it was designed for - providing a challenging venue for the public golfer. Could it have been more? Sure, but then you'd be looking at even more $$

I don't agree with your position here at all.  Why would it cost more.  We are talking about lousy architecture by Chris Gray and lousy workmanship by his crew doesn't mean more expensive green fees.  Take a look at Rustic Canyon.

[Tim Taylor]

I see what you're saying Joel. I haven't been to Rustic Canyon. Heck, I've never been to LA!

But, isn't this an apples to oranges comparison? Harding Park is in a city. Rustic Canyon is in a semi-rural spot an hour away from LA. One is in a fairly wet area one in a fairly dry area? How do they compare in terms of rounds played, etc.? Would it be reasonable to expect the City of SF to maintain a course with the types of bunkers and greens we'd all like to see? Is that really possible at a big city muni?

Not looking to pick a battle, hoping to get some genuine insight here.

TimT

[John Keenan]

Tim I am in your camp as well re Harding I enjoy it. I do not live in the City so I feel it is a bit on the high side on price but overall a nice place to play. Also it is great to walk

On Presidio yes it is drain challanged but it is just a very pretty location.  

In the end it is a matter of taste and to mine Harding is quite nice.