Par 3 "strategy"

[redanman]

From another thread.........

# 7 at Pebble is a perfect example.

There is no strategy, no optional play, there is but one play, hit the green.

What practical strategies and options exist at # 10 at Friar's Head.

Q.E.D., perhaps.

Par 3's rarely have strategy.

What is required for strategy, two or more shots?

I think a par 3 can provide options especially if a potential ground game exists, but the concept of strategy, strategic attack if you will requires a set-up and a possible reward.

The strategy of a par three is likely limited to teeing it on the left side of the markers or the right side.

[THuckaby2]

redanman:

Go read more of that thread, if you care to.

Many believe "strategy" includes HOW to golf your ball along with WHERE to try to place it.

In that definition, strategy can exist on many par threes.

Of course the question remains is that definition correct, but I think it is.  Or at least I note Rich Goodale thinks it is, and he is damn smart and has spent a good part of his life as an expert on the very word "strategy" in business, so I'm gonna go with him.

 

[ForkaB]

I played short twice last year on the 180 yard 2nd at Dornoch in the Carniegie Shield, both times to perfect effect........

[Andy Hughes]

Damn, I see I missed Huckaby's 10,000 post.
Was it memorable?

[THuckaby2]

Damn, I see I missed Huckaby's 10,000 post.
Was it memorable?

I slammed Ted Kramer's curve and well... I think I'd give myself a ground-rule double at best.  Go read America's Guest Top 10, currently languishing on page 2.

TH

[Andy Hughes]

Rich, redanman, Tom, other Wise Men,
What, then, makes a par 3 a great hole (I'll worry about the 4s and 5s later)?
Is it the setting, the joy of playing it, the strategy of it, the anticipation of playing it while still 4 holes away, the stunning view, the precision required, the way the hole sits in the landscape, the way the hazards tie into the green, the fact that it sits on a famous course (I am reminded of Tom's less-than overwhelmed response to a Winged Foot par 3), its history?  Other things?

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

It's all of that.
And a LACK of one thing or another can doom it, as well.
Also undue hype can doom a golf hole that relies on feeling, tradition, etc. for a large part of its greatness.... Like WF-West #10.  Tough hole, hell yes.  Great hole?  Only in Rich and my first definition.

TH

[THuckaby2]

For Huck's 10,000th

See this thread

Funny, and I do appreciate and accept the dig, but wrong.

MY post 10,000 was comically carefully planned out.  It came in this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16776

TH

[THuckaby2]

redanman:

Whatever your math tells you and however it reads now, I am here to tell you post #10,000 on the nose was the one I did in response to Ted's thread.  I made certain of it.  Ted put up the thread so that it could be that way.  It was fun in a goofy way last Friday afternoon.

The one you cite was #10,001.

TH

late edit - you got me sort of, in that I did go do this...I just did go in and count back.  And you remain wrong.  The post you cite was #10,001. Your error was in not keeping up with my total... in the time it took you to do that, I had added one more to my count.

[THuckaby2]

Absolutely, and I surely do appreciate it.  What I now need you to do is go give him some research project, or make him actually play some golf, or somehow get him away from the computer for a month or two.

 

[Andy Hughes]

As with what makes all great holes;
does it present you with a challenge that when successfully executed provides you a monumentally memorific memory and satiety equal to or greater than the sum of the individual parts.
oR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

Dang, I left my special decoder ring home today!
OK, I get the challenge part...not sure I'm gonna agree with it though, as there are holes that lean to the more mundane challenge-wise that would still make the Hughes Great List.

I guess this means that despite having the best and the brightest on gca, there really isn't a definition of a great par 3. Maybe we each make our own, or decide for ourselves? But that seems a bad way to go, for a number of reasons....

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

Why must there be any firm definition of greatness accepted by all?  Why can't it be unique to each golfer?

I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever....
But I await your "bad reasons."

TH

[Andy Hughes]

Well, just for starters, what would be the point of ever arguing about a hole or a course being great?  If everyone has their own parameters, then every hole is great (now, personally, when you play 10 rounds or so a year, every hole IS great, but that's a different story). And if every hole is great, then the word loses all meaning

[Andy Hughes]

To me there is just a thing as "emotion" and "soul-stirring" in a golf hole.  Some have it, some don't.  And it is VERY hard to define, and at times fleeting... and also very personal.  IE, I was completely un-moved, and in fact disappointed, by Winged Foot West #10, where others (including Tommy) feel ghosts there, think I'm crazy.  So of course there's no right and wrong in something so personal.

From Mr 10,000, in another thread.  Well said, and I agree completely. Which makes it very hard for me to see how any hole can be called great. Maybe great holes are one thing, strategic holes another, etc.

[THuckaby2]

Andy:

Well you see how Rich and I have punted on it, saying "every hole is great."

BUT... you'll also note I go on to say some are greater than others.

So the debate remains worthwhile.  Again using WF#10 as an example, the more knowledgeable evaluators than I, like Tommy and Matt Ward, have me convinced that it's ME who's missing something, not the golf hole.  So my soul wasn't stirred... but that's likely because I relied too much on expectations and pre-judgements and didn't open my soul to what was really there.  I hope to get another chance some day.

And stuff like this is what makes the discussion worthwhile.  Sure it is personal, but if one is open to it, one really can learn.

TH

[Sean_A]

Andy

That is a sound observation.  I don't think great holes have to be strategically sound.  There must be loads of examples of penal or "loads of luck" holes that are great.  One of the best 3s in my experience, The Postage Stamp, certainly has some strategy for the very good player.  However, for a 9 capper such as myself, the strategy is to hit the green or suffer a potentially very high number!

Ciao

Sean

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Strategy takes into account not only where you need to hit the ball but also where is the best place to miss.  

This is a picture of the 5th hole at The Ocean Course (207 yard par 3):



Would you rather miss left or right?  Short or long?

[Brent Hutto]

Strategy takes into account not only where you need to hit the ball but also where is the best place to miss.  

This is a picture of the 5th hole at The Ocean Course (207 yard par 3):



Would you rather miss left or right?  Short or long?

I love that hole. On the days I played it the flag was all the way in the back. On the second day the wind was blowing up the long axis of the green (i.e. from the right and helping a bit). What a lefty slicer's dream! I hit a 5-iron that landed a couple yards short of the green and fed all the way down the right side, finishing hole high just off the right fringe in the rough.

With the back hole location, you can play the fifth as virtually an island green by trying to carry it straight over waste area all the way. A little short, seriously long or seriously left is probably not so good but missing to the right is no problem. Regardless of wind I'd think right-handed golfers would like a hole where your bailout is to the right and the righter the shorter it can be and still be on the green or just in front. I know the NE breeze the day I played it was not the prevailing, perhaps the hole would be quite difficult downwind.

[ForkaB]

Andy

That is a sound observation.  I don't think great holes have to be strategically sound.  There must be loads of examples of penal or "loads of luck" holes that are great.  One of the best 3s in my experience, The Postage Stamp, certainly has some strategy for the very good player.  However, for a 9 capper such as myself, the strategy is to hit the green or suffer a potentially very high number!

Ciao

Sean

I once hit the Postage Stamp and then took 13.  My first putt was anything but strategically sound........  

[gookin]

I think the concept of "strategy" on par 3 s should not only apply to one par 3 but to the collection of par 3 s on a course. The strategic value should change from hole to hole. Raynor does a wonderful job of this with his standard collection of Eden, Redan, Short, and Biarritz.  Each presents the player with different risk and reward choices as well as options for shaping your shots.  Generally, these holes are routed so that on a given day no two holes face the same wind conditions, further enhancing the range of strategic choices that must be faced on the par 3 s when considered collectively. Then to make the right strategic choice even more critical for the player, par 3 s generally provide fewer opportunities for recovery.  This magnifies the consequence of a poor strategic decision on a par 3 when compared to 4 s and 5 s. Do one shot holes require strategy? Absolutely.

[Rob_Waldron]

Raynor was way ahead of his time with respect to Par 3 holes. As David posted Raynor incorporated strategy into his collection of par 3 holes.

There is nothing quite like standing on the tee of one of Raynor's Redan holes facing a back left pin placement. Do you carry the tee shot back to the hole or do you sling a low draw onto the front of the green and let the ball use the slope of the green to get to the hole..I LUV IT!

The art of shotmaking is alive and compliments of Seth Raynor!

[Brian_Gracely]

The art of shotmaking is alive and compliments of Seth Raynor!

The guy got the design of his holes from CBM, who got them from other courses in the UK.  It's great that he built courses that had strategic options, but I just don't understand this constant love-affair with a guy that built the same course over and over.  

Now, if he had conceptualized the holes himself, I could understand it a little better.