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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2005, 09:07:00 PM »
....its time to give it up Patrick....go to sleep, go to sleep...rest.
 sometimes optional strategic New Topics are overated  ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2005, 09:07:28 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2005, 12:02:59 AM »
Andy,

Let me ask you a few questions to help me uderstand your thought process.  When you play NGLA, do you always play the same shot each time every time you play each hole?

What you don't understand is best summed up by the immortal words of Sam Snead.
"You gotta dance with who ya brung"

If I can't hit a controlled fade on the practice tee, I'm sure as hell, not going to try to hit that shot on the redan.

If I can't hit a low draw or low punch shot, I'm not going to experiment with those shots, or any shots, on the golf course either.

What you also fail to grasp is that the golf course is not the same every time I play it.

The temperature, the wind, velocity and direction, the moisture in the air, the firmness of the fairways and greens, their speeds, the lushness of the rough.  
All of these components factor into the presentation that the golf course offers me each day.  It is those factors which conspire to complicate the presentation of the architecture,
the architecture du jour.

Adding to that conspiracy is..... my game du jour.

My task.

To make the most of my game du jour when confronting the architecture du jour.

Hence my game plan is set by what the course offers or gives me.  And, if it offered me the same every day, and if my confidence and control of my shots was the same every day, then I'd play the golf course the same way every day.  But, we know it isn't, and thus I have to play it as it's presented, with a game that's determined 15 minutes before I tee off.
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Have you ever hit a fade into the Redan?

YES
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What's your normal shot shape?

A draw.
For years, for my tee shots in the north, I've been searching for a higher trajectory and finally found it in a Taylor Driver.
An old Callaway, Biggest Big Bertha allowed me to hit a much lower draw which was ideal for the windier conditions I encountered in South Florida.

My irons were on a lower trajectory until about 1998-9 when I made some adjustments and began hitting my lower irons higher, which is what I wanted.
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What's your handicap?

It was zero or lower for 40 years.
Sadly, it's gone to the 6-7 range in the last 2 years.
However, I'm determined to get it back to 2-4 this summer.
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Do you ever adjust the height of any shots there when the wind is blowing?

Does that include taking a lower club ?

Yes, I've tried to adjust my trajectory depending on wind direction and velocity.  Sadly, my body didn't always follow my brains intent and directions.
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« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 12:03:54 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2005, 02:11:23 PM »
Pat,thanks for the response

Quote
What you don't understand is best summed up by the immortal words of Sam Snead.
"You gotta dance with who ya brung"
If I can't hit a controlled fade on the practice tee, I'm sure as hell, not going to try to hit that shot on the redan.
If I can't hit a low draw or low punch shot, I'm not going to experiment with those shots, or any shots, on the golf course either.
No, I do understand that, and I don't disagree with it entirely.  As I said earlier, for a player who is incapable of hitting anything other than a fade, it is probably not a realistic option to try a draw.
But there are two caveats:
1. I don't believe everyone is restricted to one and only one shot
2. Maybe a small part of the joy of golf is pulling off a shot that is not your bread and butter?

Quote
What you also fail to grasp is that the golf course is not the same every time I play it.
The temperature, the wind, velocity and direction, the moisture in the air, the firmness of the fairways and greens, their speeds, the lushness of the rough.
All of these components factor into the presentation that the golf course offers me each day.  It is those factors which conspire to complicate the presentation of the architecture,
the architecture du jour.
No, I get that too.  The course changes, the needed shots change, the choices you make will change.

Quote
Hence my game plan is set by what the course offers or gives me.  And, if it offered me the same every day, and if my confidence and control of my shots was the same every day, then I'd play the golf course the same way every day.  But, we know it isn't, and thus I have to play it as it's presented, with a game that's determined 15 minutes before I tee off.
Yes.  You will hit different shots or make different choices depending on 'temperature, the wind, velocity and direction, the moisture in the air, the firmness of the fairways and greens, their speeds, the lushness of the rough'. You will not choose one and only one shot for every situation.

Quote
Have you ever hit a fade into the Redan?
YES
Of course, that makes sense, as you have said there are times it is the best shot for some hole locations.  But does this not imply that you have made a decision to play both draws and fades into this hole, based on a variety of factors, that you have not hit the same one shot over and over?  

Quote
What's your normal shot shape?
A draw.
For years, for my tee shots in the north, I've been searching for a higher trajectory and finally found it in a Taylor Driver.
An old Callaway, Biggest Big Bertha allowed me to hit a much lower draw which was ideal for the windier conditions I encountered in South Florida.
My irons were on a lower trajectory until about 1998-9 when I made some adjustments and began hitting my lower irons higher, which is what I wanted.
Yeah, my years in FL have left me with a much lower ball flight than I would like. And now that I am in MD, I wish the longer irons would get up in the air a little better!!

Quote
What's your handicap?
It was zero or lower for 40 years.
Sadly, it's gone to the 6-7 range in the last 2 years.
However, I'm determined to get it back to 2-4 this summer.
I wish you luck (note to self: make sure you get strokes when you play Pat Mucci)
Clearly, you have played at a higher level than most. But you certainly have played different shots based on the situation.  Why do you not think others would do the same?


Quote
Do you ever adjust the height of any shots there when the wind is blowing?
Does that include taking a lower club ?
Of course. That's all part of the options and strategies involved.  I am sure you make those types of choices all the time. Why wouldn't others?  For example, when playing a short downhill par 3 like 7 at Pebble Beach, I would expect many people to make a conscious decision to hit more club to keep it down a little.

Quote
Yes, I've tried to adjust my trajectory depending on wind direction and velocity.  Sadly, my body didn't always follow my brains intent and directions.
That sounds about like the rest of us ;)
But the outcome doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the strategies or options.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2005, 05:22:47 PM »
Andy,

But there are two caveats:
1. I don't believe everyone is restricted to one and only one shot

But, they mostly are, either due to limited ability or practical applications dealing with margins of error.
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2. Maybe a small part of the joy of golf is pulling off a shot that is not your bread and butter?

Under what circumstances ?
Talk is cheap, but when you're actually over the shot, and the results mean something external to you, your comfort zone will dictate a sole choice.
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Quote
You will not choose one and only one shot for every situation.

I never implied that.
Why would anyone chose a sole shot for every situation, that's absurd.  How did you come up with that theory ?
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Quote
Have you ever hit a fade into the Redan?
YES

But does this not imply that you have made a decision to play both draws and fades into this hole, based on a variety of factors, that you have not hit the same one shot over and over?

In a remark posted above you indicated that you understood the variables in the presentation of the golf course and the variables in the golfers game, and the relationship betwee the two, yet the above question indicates that you don't understand the concept.

If the presentation is the same, and my game is the same, then I'm going to hit the same shot, over and over and over again.  
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I wish you luck (note to self: make sure you get strokes when you play Pat Mucci)

It hasn't done Ran any good over the years, but he is beginning to get competitive. ;D
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But you certainly have played different shots based on the situation.  Why do you not think others would do the same?

Because most can't shape the ball, especially today.
When Hale Irwin tells me that he has to make an exagerated swing to get the ball to move the way it did 20 years ago, that tells me that if the best players in the world have difficulty in shaping the ball as desired, that amateurs, including mediocre and bad amateurs can't do it.  
So why suggest options/shots/strategies that are well beyond a players ability to conceive and execute ?

Quote
Do you ever adjust the height of any shots there when the wind is blowing?

Does that include taking a lower club ?
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Of course. That's all part of the options and strategies involved.  I am sure you make those types of choices all the time. Why wouldn't others?

Because most lack the disposition, talent, intellect and willingness to deviate from their comfort zone.
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For example, when playing a short downhill par 3 like 7 at Pebble Beach, I would expect many people to make a conscious decision to hit more club to keep it down a little.


I would totally disagree with your analysis.

From 100 yards, from an elevated tee to a small green, why wouldn't a player want to hit the highest lofted club possible ?

How many 6-12-18-24-30 handicaps have the ability to "go down" several clubs at 100 yards, from an elevated tee to what's basically a small island green ?

Play the hole a dozen or so times, then tell me how to play it.
Until then, you're just fantasizing.
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Quote
Yes, I've tried to adjust my trajectory depending on wind direction and velocity.  Sadly, my body didn't always follow my brains intent and directions.
That sounds about like the rest of us ;)
But the outcome doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the strategies or options.

This is what you miss.

It has everything to do with the strategies or options.
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« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 05:27:06 PM by Patrick_Mucci »