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THuckaby2

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2005, 10:12:51 AM »
George:

I'd differ only in saying they are overrated if one makes them the be all and end all of all golf.

But yes, those are two different questions.  Which is pretty much why I made my first post in this topic.

 ;D

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2005, 10:18:04 AM »
Nothing is the be all and end all for anything.

Golf is a personal, individual game. Some play for the competition, some for the views, some for the beer, whatever.

What bothers me is that propagating the notion that strategy is overrated is a surefire way to ensure we head back to the 40s, 50s and 60s, when very few of the world's greatest courses were built.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2005, 10:20:57 AM »
George:

That is a very good point.  Mr. Moriarty said much the same thing.

So yes, the bottom line is that for the good of the game, it is better to have more golf courses that offer these strategic choices than those that don't.

I just also don't think that notion one way or the other effects why and how new courses get built...

But if it does matter, and if the world does give a rat's ass what a yokel like me says... then I should shut the hell up.

You'll note I'm over 10,000 posts and I'm gunning for Tom Paul.

 ;D

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2005, 10:33:18 AM »
I am of the opinion that every hole requires some form of strategy, some just more than others.
On some holes it may be as simple as evaluating the elements and enviroment, on others it may be very ellaborate and involve.lay ups, perahps on even two shots, where to leave the ball on the green for the best putt..where not to miss the green..what bunker is better than another etc....
But even the simplest of holes..ie #7 at Pebble requires strategy..for insatnce the wind factor, avoiding the bunkers especially those long..avoiding the back right of the green as that leaves you with a tricky downhill putt..things like that..strategy is always there, just in varying degrees of severity.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2005, 10:44:55 AM »
Lore tells us that Snead said about #7 at PB" Putt the ball down the path into the front bunker. Get up and down for your par."

Maybe that was instead of hitting a four iron, as is needed on some days.

Huck, Comparing the 7th at PB with the 10th at PG is fascinating. Well done. I never ever thought of that. You're not getting older (more than 10k posts) you're getting better.

Nick, A belgian at PG, uses his putter on #10, and has even scored an ace with it. The play, as he tells it, is to play off the mound that sits left, halfway to the 106 yard hole.




THuckaby2

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2005, 10:56:35 AM »
Huck, Comparing the 7th at PB with the 10th at PG is fascinating. Well done. I never ever thought of that. You're not getting older (more than 10k posts) you're getting better.

Adam:  well it was Goodale who made the initial comparison.  But thanks.
 ;D

To me there is just a thing as "emotion" and "soul-stirring" in a golf hole.  Some have it, some don't.  And it is VERY hard to define, and at times fleeting... and also very personal.  IE, I was completely un-moved, and in fact disappointed, by Winged Foot West #10, where others (including Tommy) feel ghosts there, think I'm crazy.  So of course there's no right and wrong in something so personal.

But can "greatness" be determined any other way?  What makes a hole great if not how it makes us feel while playing it?  And how can this NOT include many issues beyond the pure "architecture"?

Objective determinations of greatness would have to include what obstacles were overcome to create the hole, how efficiently it got made, how tough it was to build, etc... things that matter to architects and developers, but not much to golfers.

This has been a semi-frequent rant of mine in here and the boards preceding it.  What redanman calls "experience" or the"whole instead of the hole" matters big-time to golfers... so why NOT talk about it, evaluate holes and courses using that context?  In the end the game remains meant to be played, not sit back and studied.  Of course one can do the latter, but that also entails a wholly-different evaluation...

TH

A_Clay_Man

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2005, 11:07:18 AM »
Forget it, I take it back, Huck. You're just getting older.

WTG, Rihc

 :-* ;D

THuckaby2

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2005, 11:11:26 AM »
Forget it, I take it back, Huck. You're just getting older.

WTG, Rihc

 :-* ;D

I thought so.
 ;D ;D ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2005, 11:43:47 AM »
Paul Cowley,

Would you describe for me your options and strategies when the hole is playing downwind with a two club length wind ?

Conversely, please describe your strategies and options when you're playing into the same wind.


Paul, could you answer these two simple questions ?

Rich Goodale,

Just because one possesses the ability to hit a mulititude of shots with a variety of clubs doesn't mean that there isn't but ONE shot, a shot of prudent default to get from the tee at
# 7 to the green.

Where a tee is elevated far above a small green, from 100 or so yards, I don't know how you get a ball to fly low and hold the green, per your example.

Conditions usually dictate play.
We also know that it's far more difficult to move the ball today.  Most of the comments should be viewed in the same context as the game plans fighters devised when they were about to enter the ring with Mike Tyson, and Mike Tyson's response to a reporter asking him aobut his opponents "game plan"  Tyson stated that, "Everybody's got a game plan, until they get hit"  

Well, it's the same as you step onto the 7th tee.

The moment of truth is upon you.
And all of the B.S. and all of the playing theories that people try to posture, are out the window.  One must now execute the shot they are the most comfortable with and confident of, not some esoteric shot that they heard  some pro pulled off somewhere.  

When pressure is exerted golfers revert to their comfort zone, not experimental golf.

In the ultimate, there is no optional play on the hole.
It's a simple, pass-fail examination.
Almost like the 17th at TPC.

Everything else is mental masturbation, which, by the way, may be a viable alternative if you don't have a good foursome.

I once had a caddy, on a course that I never played before.
When I would ask him how he thought I should  play the shot at hand, he would come up with all sorts of elaborate shots that were well beyond my ability, shots that GOD might question.  In theory, they worked in his mind, in practice, they were impossible.

On a calm day I want to see Paul Cowley hit a low, punched, cut 3-iron to that green.  

I'd also like to pull a Brinks truck up to that tee and bet those golfers who feel that they can hit that green with numerous clubs in a variety of ways.

In fact, I'll give them 40 balls apiece so that they can demonstrate the practical application of their theory of options.

Work .... will become just a distant memory ;D

ForkaB

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2005, 12:33:46 PM »
Pat

Unfortunately the only guy I know who actually did what I posited (hit every club in his bag--driver to putter--onto a par 3) is dead.  It was Himself at Bundoran.  I'm sure Patty Berg could do it today, if she were in better health.

But, if you want to make that bet and let me nominate Eldrick as my man, your retirement will be short-lived and miserable. ;D

PS--it really does shock me that a player as good as you cannot remember how to hit a low punch shot with backspin.  Even I can do it from time to time, and I'm crap....... ;)

Adam

Don't worry, Huck will have hijacked that thought of mine as his own by the time summer comes....... :'(
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 12:34:40 PM by Rich Goodale »

DMoriarty

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2005, 12:37:15 PM »
Varying wind makes a hole like No. 7 interesting.   If the wind were more consistent, the hole would be less compelling.

Call it strategy or not, but the golfer certainly has a choice of how to try to deal with that wind.  

THuckaby2

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2005, 12:37:16 PM »
Adam

Don't worry, Huck will have hijacked that thought of mine as his own by the time summer comes....... :'(

Ha!  I was waiting for that.  Well done.  But hey, I could have just said "thanks, Adam", and left it at that, as you would have done today.
 ;D ;D

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2005, 06:47:26 PM »
Patrick Mucci.....sorry about the delayed post, but work for me hasn't been a distant memory :'(

   The first scenario I would probably play a half or whatever pitching wedge back in my stance.

   The second would be a knockdown seven or so to try to hold it in the wind.....in both cases I would want to pick a shot or club that got the ball on the ground fastest.

   I would be more than happy to accomodate a bet ...I don't have a Brinks truck but might suggest loser pays for two nights at the Lodge at Spanish Bay, greens fees and air fare.

....that low cut, 120 yd three iron is my go to club from the right side thru the trees back to the fairway and it will hold that green ....give me forty balls and I might double the bet if I fail to birdie any....anything on that green is a birdie putt as I am sure you know ;).
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2005, 09:25:02 PM »
....yo Patrick?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2005, 09:31:03 PM »
Is chaos and randomness considered a strategy??
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2005, 09:41:11 PM »
Mike .....yes, in my mind at least, although others might concur when evaluating the Old Course....randomn kaoss ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 09:42:32 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2005, 09:46:58 PM »
Paul,
We agree.....so I guess there is some type of strategy everywhere.  Right?
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2005, 09:50:26 PM »
Paul Cowley,

The betting window will remain perpetually open for you.

The only problem I'll have is deciding whether or not my continuous stay at the Lodge at Spanish Bay qualifies me for legal residence in the State of California.

Ball flight is not an architectural option
Architectural options are alternate routes, not trajectories.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 09:52:12 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2005, 10:30:14 PM »
Patrick Mucci....ball flights one of mine and I would enjoy seeing you play #3 at River Pines in Verdi, Nevada which will open this spring...as my guest of course.

...as per the bet, April 16-19 would work for me :).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 10:31:54 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

DMoriarty

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2005, 10:45:46 PM »
Ball flight is not an architectural option
Architectural options are alternate routes, not trajectories.

If this is the case, dont you think we ought to stop discussing those fictional architectural options presented by redan holes?  ::)

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2005, 11:05:22 PM »
Ball flight is not an architectural option
Architectural options are alternate routes, not trajectories.

If this is the case, dont you think we ought to stop discussing those fictional architectural options presented by redan holes?  ::)

Bump and run vs. aerial. What's the difference? Surely it isn't trajectory  ???

DMoriarty

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2005, 11:17:24 PM »
SPBD,

You probably play the game at a higher skill level than me, but I'd never consider calling the tee shot on a redan a bump and run, given that one option requires one's shot to carry just over the fronting bunker, then release toward the back left corner of the green.

If you really dont think the trajectory and spin are important on a redan, try the 'bump and run' option left-handed.  You might find that it is a little difficult to get the run part out of a left-handed faded.  

Or if you are not ambidextrous (I most definitely am not) then try the aerial version with a right-handed hard low draw which first hits in the middle of the green.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2005, 11:18:18 PM by DMoriarty »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2005, 11:38:36 PM »
MDoriarity
Given that you know where i've spent the past couple of years, I'm betting you'll want to retract that first statement.

Perhaps prefacing my post with "Or," would have better illustrated my agreement with you (i think).

If routes to the hole can only be charted on the ground, I'm missing more of this whole strategy business than previously thought (which was approaching zero).

TEPaul

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2005, 11:47:10 PM »
DavidM:

I know you're sort of a cerebral guy but do you mean to tell me you're a left handed golfer too?

I'm sorry but I never realized that! Please say it's so---and then I can competely understand why you've been in this theoretically strategic vacuum or wind-tunnel these last few years. Anybody who has to try to hit a fade bump and run, check once and release shot to NGLA's #4 just has the golf architecture/strategic deck stacked against them,

C.B was good---but probably not that good. The curmudgeonly SOB thought of the first course in the USA that had 18 great holes but I bet he never thought about strategic implications for a left-hander!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Are strategy and options overrated ?
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2005, 07:10:11 AM »
Dave Moriarty,

Most golfers have a pattern to their golf games.
Some patterns are tighter then others
Some golfers have the talent to alter those patterns at will.
Other golfer don't have that talent.

As Sam Snead said, "you've got to dance with who you brung"

So, let's establish that the vast, vast majority of golfers can't control the shape of their shot at will.  Let's establish that today's equipment reinforces that statement, that the ball and clubs make it harder to maneuver the golf ball.  Let's also establsh that golfers have a comfort zone that fits their general pattern of play.

Having said all of that, is a golfer whose game is a high fade, going to suddenly hit a low draw into # 4 at NGLA ?

Conversely, will a golfer who hits a low hook, hit a high fade into # 1 at NGLA ?

Options of play only exist if the golfer can execute either, or all of the choices.  If not, he must play the shot of default, his patterned play within his comfort zone.

When viewing the large schematic of the NGLA golf course it's clear that there are two lines of basic play on most holes.

A scratch golfer, pro or touring pro would never opt for the lines of play or options taken by the 25 handicap.  Those lines are intended for the golfer to shoot bogey golf.

That doesn't mean that the golfer, having hit his drive on # 1, 40 yards short and in the left side of the fairway doesn't have 14 clubs to choose from when playing his next shot.

# 3 also presents alternative routes of play.
With a drive in the center of the fairway, one can go directly at the hole, or one can play along the right side, reaching the green in three.  But, that option is only open if the golfer can execute a difficult, direct approach.  If he can't he doesn't have that as an option, he must default to the safer alternative that is within his playing abilities, his comfort zone.

Paul Cowley makes the mistake of equating the hitting of a 7-iron versus a 6 or 8-iron with optional routes of play.
At # 7 at PBGC or # 6 at NGLA there is but one option, tee to green.  There is no default or bail out option.  It's pass or fail.

The architect has demanded that you execute the shot he's presented you with, to the exclusion of all others.

It's that simple.
There is no strategy, just a life or death examination of your ability to get the ball from point A to point B, with no other choices.