Are strategy and options overrated ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Watching the golf on Pebble Beach today, especially holes
# 7 and # 8 caused me to wonder, do great holes need strategy and options in order to be great.

# 7 at Pebble is a perfect example.

There is no strategy, no optional play, there is but one play, hit the green.

On # 8, while there may be strategies and/or options on paper, what actual options do golfers of different abilities have ?  20 handicaps can't play it like Mickelson and other better players do, and very good players won't play it like 20 handicappers do.

There is no doubt that these are great holes.

So, why do great holes have to be considered holes that offer strategy and options  ?

What practical strategies and options exist at # 10 at Friar's Head.

And, in practice, are strategies and options only for the better player ?

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

7 and 8 at Pebble Beach are different types of golf holes though.

If EVERY hole at Pebble were like that, the course would be mind numbingly boring. Holes like those two represent one type of course architecture and serve to test one aspect of the overall golf game.

Strategy may take a back seat on such holes, but on the whole, isn't overrated.

[paul cowley]

Pat.....both holes you describe employ a great strategy... do what they tell you or risk failure.....simple, to the point.
....every hole does not have to be a three dimensional chess match to be successful.

[James Bennett]

Patrick

I agree that a great hole does not need to have strategy and options to be great.  Such a hole may expolit penal, strategic or heroic elements (or even a combination of all).  The emphasis here is on a single great hole, as suggested in your thread.

Hopefully, a golf course will provide a balance of holes incorporating all of the essential elements in the routing, covering the penal, strategic and heroic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle Harris,

Please reread my post, carefully this time.

I wasn't suggesting that all 18 holes on a golf course be devoid of strategy or options, only that they may not need to be present for the hole to be great.

Paul Cowley,

Where's the strategy on # 7 ?

It's a one dimensional demand shot, without strategy or options.

On # 8, practical strategy and options may be more in the realm of theory then practice.

[paul cowley]

Pat ... in the 100 or so times I've played #7,and the many clubs I have used to do so, I find the shot requirements to be optioned and varied ...i.e. strategic....its a par three!
....we differ in that I feel that a one [3] dimensional demand shot is strategic.

[Mike_Young]

IMHO most good players play for the "leave" or miss.  Unless you hole the shot to be played there is always a better place to miss the shot.  I understand exactly what PM is saying but I guess strategy could also be considered whether to miss the shot long, short or in the bunker.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Cowley,

Would you describe for me your options and strategies when the hole is playing downwind with a two club length wind ?

Conversely, please describe your strategies and options when you're playing into the same wind.

It's one dimensional, hit the green, there is no other strategy, there are no other options of play.

So that I'm better prepared to evaluate your answers, could you let me know what your handicap is ?  Thanks.

[Bruceski]

I agree, Pat. No strategy on those holes.

7 and 8 are great holes because of the beauty of their surroundings. Move them to West Virginia and they become forgettable.

[paul cowley]

 Patrick Mucci....
    Skillfull planning is the core of strategy.
    A skillfull planner employs many options to design a course.
    Including a demand shot is one of the options that creates
      the strategic fabric of a course.
    hence ....a demand shot hole is strategic.

   I would argue that all holes are strategic, regardless of their design...some are just better than others.

....if you really want to evaluate my answers, I'd suggest you evalute my courses, not my playing ability....but FYI, I'm a single digit if you would like to play sometime  

[ForkaB]

Pat

if you were (or even had been) a skilled golfer you would know that there are multiple strategies for even the simplest of holes.  On the 7th at Pebble on a calm day, for example, you can hit it high or low, with a draw or a fade or dead straight, and with various sorts of spin, with anywhere from 3 to 14 different clubs (depending on your skill--higher number = higher skill viz. Christy O'Connor)--all offerring differing risks and rewards, depending on your capabilities and ambitions.  I once saw Patty Berg give a clinic on such a shot, and you would be amazed to have seen how much complexity someone with her golfing brain and ability could envisage from such "simplicity."

Oops....I forgot that you were and are a skilled gollfer.  Never mind..........

[paul cowley]

....and while Rich did a fine job of outlining the various play strategies involved, limiting ones options of play is as big a strategy as providing many....making a player just hit the ball from point A to B is a core design strategy.

[Andy Hughes]

Paul et al,
I find this fascinating, and confusing.
What makes holes such as #7 and #8 'great' holes?  Any architect can make a 100 yard par three surrounded by sand--is this one great just because of the view?
Is every par 3 that demands you hit the green or else a great hole, or is the view needed as well?
Andy

[ForkaB]

Andy

You just have to go a few miles down the road from Pebble to look at the 10th at Pacific Grove.  Virtually the same hole as #7 PB, but without sand, water or any sort of interesting view.  Just 100 yards downhill to a back to front sloping green.  I've played the hole twice, hit what I thought was a pretty decent PW each time and come away with two 4's.  There is both strategy AND execution involved in even that simple and homely hole.  IMO.

[THuckaby2]

The answer to Pat's question is YES, but not SOLELY for the reasons he states.  Yes, wonderful golf holes can exist where the "strategies" entail only HOW to golf your ball (as Rich describes) rather than WHERE to try to place it (the normal notion of strategic choice).

BUT... more importantly... strategy and options are overrated because:

1. They can be overwhelmed by great players, either by skill or distance, making them irrelevant (think of a huge draw around the trees on 13 Augusta leaving a 7iron or less into the green... same thing for enormous drives leaving short irons into 15).... and

2.  They are IGNORED by way too many everyday "I didn't leave my wife and kids and pay $100 to lay up" weekend hackers, for whom they also are irrelevant.

So my take is that these strategic choices and options we wax poetic about matter only to a small minority of golfers:  the very thoughtful ones who aren't skilled enough to overwhelm them, but still care enough about their score or match (either due to competition or other factors) to seek them out.  To me, that's not very many golfers....

Gosh I hope Dave Moriarty reads this... or maybe not... this is a discussion we took opposite sides on MANY years ago, and never came close to any middle ground.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  does that deceptive difficulty make PG#10 "great" in your view?

I've made plenty of fours there also.  

[ForkaB]

No, Tom.  Neither 7PB nor 10PG are "great."  Unless, of course, like you and I, one believes that all golf holes are "great."

[A_Clay_Man]

Two strategic mental processies. Where to hit it, and, how to hit it.

On 7 at Pebble the strategy involves the ball flight, or how one hits it. On 8 the strategy on the tee shot is there. Look at Lefties placement, versus Owen's yesterday. Lefty chose to strategically challenge the cliff's edge and was rewarded with a much easier shot. Owen, seemed to choose to have the wind help him for his next by placing his shot on the right side of the fairway, and was granted his wish, Resulting with long in bunker.

With the wind howling off the water on #8, the easier shot is not from the downwind position, right. Because the green is so small, but IMO the better play is to play slightly left, allowing the golfer to hold a cut against the now slight cross wind aspect of the shot.

[Andy Hughes]

You just have to go a few miles down the road from Pebble to look at the 10th at Pacific Grove.  Virtually the same hole as #7 PB, but without sand, water or any sort of interesting view.  Just 100 yards downhill to a back to front sloping green.  I've played the hole twice, hit what I thought was a pretty decent PW each time and come away with two 4's.  There is both strategy AND execution involved in even that simple and homely hole.  IMO.

Rich,
Is the hole at Pacific Grove as 'great' a hole as #7 at Pebble Beach (I'm afraid I must use quotes as I am not sure any longer of the definition of great  )?  Does the view make the difference (disclosure-I've never played either)
I guess my problem/issue is that for me every hole and shot requires execution, so that does not seem a differentiator.  What is it that makes the Pacific Grove (or the Pebble Beach) hole a great one?
I know personally my own definition is rather jumbled and chaotic, and strategy is just a part of it.

update:

Unless, of course, like you and I, one believes that all golf holes are "great."

Just saw this from you Rich, and this actually is closer to my definition of great. Which doesn't make things any easier!

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  Aha.  And whew.

And of course I do believe all golf holes are great.
But I also believe some are greater than others.

#7 PB is a great golf hole - due to that view, and the holy ground on which it sits.  I kinda feel sorry for those who look at it as just a wedge.  How boring the game must be for you, and frustrating when you are off your form!  

Man does not play golf simply with his clubs, but with his heart and soul.

Or at least this man does.  I have to keep in mind that Cypress was a "ho-hum, shot a 76, what's the big deal, we should reverse the direction and then we'd have something" boring slog for a certain always-interesting expatriate I know and love.

 

Andy:  I have a feeling you and I have similar definitions of greatness for a golf hole.  And yes, 95% of the time, #7 PB is just a simple wedge in terms of execution.  But it remains a great golf hole.  Yep, it's the view.  But it's also the history, the stories, the feeling one gets on the tee... the chance at glory... it is jumbled and chaotic and difficult to define but I bet you understand perfectly.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Potato, potahto, oh great one.

What is golf if not a grand experience in one's life?

TH

[THuckaby2]

The hole is nuthin', the whole is really something!  

Aha!  Now that I can live with.  Well said.  VERY well said.

TH

[ForkaB]

It was a 74, Huck..........  But who's counting?

[George Pazin]

Are they overrated? Only if your goal is to make golf as boring and formulaic as possible.

Are they absolutely necessary for every great hole? No.

Two different questions.

[THuckaby2]

It was a 74, Huck..........  But who's counting?

Absolutely classic - very well done.  I am chuckling and learning this morning.

My humble apologies for gipping you two strokes.  Call it a penalty for lack of appreciation of #16.