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Steve Curry

HSGCA
« on: February 13, 2005, 10:27:55 AM »
Why don't we start the Historical Society of Golf Course Architecture?  I this thought while discussing various GCA topics with Pat from Essex at the GCSAA show.  We could have a quarterly publication to disseminate some of this very pertinent and interesting research.  It could stand to be the holder of all of the information for which we seek housing.  It could also stand to bring the various societies dedicated to the individuals together in an effort to assist in educating and directing courses in the proper direction for their historic courses.  Maybe it would be there to assist courses that find themselves tossed for horse tracks?

?

Just a random thought.  What do you think?

Steve
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 11:10:50 AM by Steve Curry »

Adam_F_Collins

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2005, 10:30:00 AM »
Hmmm...rather than focus on one architect or course...focus on them all...

It's certainly interesting.

Kyle Harris

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2005, 10:44:09 AM »
It's definately worth some consideration. If such an organization gets big enough, may have some clout re: rules and what not.

All it takes is a few.

Count me in.

RJ_Daley

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2005, 12:46:57 PM »
STeve, I think we have talked about this concept before.  I also am very supportive in the idea.  As a governing BOD of such an organization, I would go further and have a proposal to form a commission for the historical preservation of GCA.  Your idea of an HSGCA would be a first step to form an advocacy group to go on to propose a commission, not unlike some of these other historical building commissions.

But, the obvious problem is identifying which courses are in deed worthy of some effort to preserve, and to preserve to what era... as we have argued on GCA for years.  What rights or mantle of authority towards persuassion could such a commission have to regulate those actual occasions where the course is "tossed for horsetracks"?  

In my dream world, a commission would include, in no particular order of importance:

Ben Crenshaw
Tom Doak or a designee like Bruce Hepner
Ron Forse or designee (from competing GCA firms yet similar principles and ethics and reputation concerning restoration)
Tom Paul
Tom MacWood (not for the entertainment value, but real competing ideas that have arguable merit)
Tommy N., or Dunlop White, or any other well studied and
obviously passionate and motivated rotating participants.
And a few Presidents of Green Chairmen from 3-4 unquestionably venerable historically significant
golf courses like Pine Valley, NGLA, Cypress etc.

If there were even a "straw" list of identifiable old golf courses of on-going historical importance due to design excellence, architectural tradition, history of the game, and remain playable within the context of reasonable application to todays technology, then this commission could use moral persuasion to encourage preservation and proper restoration oversight, to prevent the tossing over to modern day CCFAD themeparks...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 12:50:01 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Curry

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2005, 02:13:09 PM »
What led me to this thought is the possibility of reprinting important and interesting historical documents on a periodic basis.  I used to be a member of the New England Genealogical society in Boston and they have such.  They are very interesting and though a current issue may not have contained anything pertinent to my research in it provided a very useful index as well as access point to previously coved work.  I was thinking of all of us here that do fantastic research and personally catalogue multitudes of very reprint-able material.  Skip the politics and let us get this done.

Steve

Mike Nuzzo

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2005, 05:24:52 PM »
Steve,
Great seeing you this week, look forward to the same next week.

I thought the treehouse was already such an entity?

RJ -
Why aren't I on your list?

An organization that makes it more difficult for an energetic, talented, respectful, young, individual to help a club complete it's wishes isn't always in the best interest of the game.

Unobjectively speaking...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

RJ_Daley

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2005, 06:50:17 PM »
Nuzz, you were right there in my thoughts about the rotating part! ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Curry

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2005, 07:12:57 PM »
Mike,

I feel remiss that we hadn't met before, as close as we came.  I had a great time with you at the seminar and reception.  I am going to try and get my routing plan scanned and post it for critique here ;)  I met up with John on Friday at the show, no poker game though  ::)

This site is excellent, but is everything kept?  I have tried to search for really old threads and can't find them.

Steve

Patrick_Mucci

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2005, 09:38:18 PM »
Steve Curry,

I think it's an idea with a great deal of merit.

Picture if you will, a service, not dissimilar from the USGA's Turf Advisory service, that performs the same function for architectural purposes.

Tommy Naccarato,

The USGA is the ideal organization to serve as the hub for the collection and disemination of architectural information.
They have the resources and the capability of managing this service.

The USGA's Turf Advisory service is one of the most successful projects that the USGA instituted.
Clubs, almost universally, rely on this service to assist their superintendents and inform their memberships.  Having a similar service that deals with architecture instead of agronomy is a worthwhile endeavor.

And, if you blend the two, using TEPaul's maintainance meld as the bridge between architecture and agronomy (maintainance) you have a perfect marriage that is for "the good of the game"

Isn't this what some envisioned for GCA.com ?
Does GCA.com have the funds, the staff, the access, the national reputation and relationship with member clubs to make this a successful endeavor ?  NO, but the USGA does.

View the concept in a positive mode, it's a good one.

Mike_Young

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2005, 09:48:36 PM »
IMHO the problem many would have is accepting that the courses of the 60's ,70's , 80's and 90's are part of architectural history also.  
And also, whether I agree with you guys or not, most clubs really don't care what someone else thinks when it comes to their architectural issues other than the listening to the architect they hire.
JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2005, 10:15:45 PM »
Mike Young,

And I'll bet there was a time when most clubs didn't think what anybody else thought about the condition of their club was important either, but, the USGA Turf Advisory program changed all of that.  

Clubs are interested in understanding and curing their agronomic problems. The USGA Turf Advisory service has also been a great ally for superintendents near and far.

There has also been a historical and a traditional connection between "classic" or "golden age" courses and the USGA.

This would be a natural extension.

john_stiles

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2005, 10:24:05 PM »
Tufts Archives is well on the way to digitally preserving much of the DRS stuff.  

However,  even Tufts needs more support today.

Tufts Archives' work has been a long process supported by many people and organizations. Some GCA enthusiasts have supported the Tufts for over 10 years now.  

Some GCA enthusiasts, as a group, have been the primary supporters of the Tufts with generous donations every year and this.    It has been an Orwellian thing with many individuals giving support in many different ways.

Tufts, with help, has accomplished much with DRS stuff.

Almost nothing, sadly, has been done with the vast majority of the others;  save work by the GCAers here and a handful of the authors and club historians.

USGA could certainly help accomplish much.

The 60s-90s and newer stuff deserves respect and perservation also.  

However,  I don't think 'IT' will  'catch on'  in regards to the newer courses until much later.

Steve Curry

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2005, 09:06:30 AM »
The only problem I see with relying on the USGA completely is that this association should be worldwide.  I think it would be easy enough to cover new to newer courses by way of forward planning.  The Historical society would find longevity through having pertinent information on new courses before they become historic.  This information would be best if it is as encompassing as possible.

Steve

OH and am I crazy but it seems this site was at one time searched by google and does not seem so anymore?

wsmorrison

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2005, 09:44:45 AM »
Steve,

A Google search on golf course architecture has GCA.com as the fourth listing.  I know the first couple listings in most Google searches are there due to payment.  I'm sure GCA.com is in its place soley due to the number of hits.

I think it is imperitive that the clubs themselves be responsible for maintaining an archive.  A larger governing body can be used to be a clearance house of the information offering archive ability, expert staff and the ability to disseminate the information.  Guidance should be given to old clubs on methods to find information and archive them safely.  New clubs can be given a different protocol to follow to keep an historic record from day one.

Mark Rowlinson and others should weigh in on the worldwide perspective of an architecture archives and research platform.  There really isn't much information (and maybe not the level of interest either) on early UK and world architecture, but certainly there should be a collection center of available information and everything new that goes into the ground.  It would probably be best if the R&A managed the project and local organizations, starting with the clubs themselves, did most of the work.  

The world collection should share a seemless platform for researchers and clubs anywhere to have access, limited or otherwise depending upon copyrights and other issues.  It is a bit more complicated than I originally thought, but there are enough archives and institutions familiar with the kind of infrastructure required that it is not insurmountable.

All living architects and surviving families of dead ones should be approached to donate copies or originals of their works in a manner that they are comfortable with for the benefit of golf, the courses themselves and nut cases like us that love to research this stuff.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 09:46:03 AM by Wayne Morrison »

RJ_Daley

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 10:04:40 AM »
Perhaps the PGA can show a little support as well.  In their drive to a billion $, they could have some of the local toon-a-mints commit a few pennies of that billion towards set-up fees for such a research repository.  The tour still plays a fair percentage of their tournaments at courses with plenty of historical tradition.  When they have a tour stop, you can go on PGA.com and sometimes see many features of the current tournament course like fly overs and routing maps.  This stuff takes $ to prepare on their PGA site, and the local site like Nissan Open have their own web pages too.  If they all pull together in these efforts, even after they have done some of these things themselves-and forward research information they have discovered in their own efforts - to a central repository, what would be so objectionable about that?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Curry

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2005, 10:41:49 AM »
Wayne and Dick,

I think every major golf organization should be involved, USGA, PGA, R&A and so on...

As far as the google thing, GCA comes up but the individual topics don't, I am almost positive I have search them successfully in the past.

Steve

Steve Lang

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2005, 02:38:58 PM »
« Last Edit: February 14, 2005, 02:42:01 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Steve Curry

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2005, 06:41:49 AM »
Steve,

I am thinking less of a center than an organization that links all of the centers and groups of historical materials together.  With its first and most important task being to index the information to promulgate the history of golf courses and to do so with a quality and clean periodical free of advertising and without bias.


Steve

TEPaul

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2005, 07:19:09 AM »
SteveL;

Your post #16 is a good point. There seems to be a lot of interesting coincidences in life, don't you think?

Steve Lang

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2005, 09:14:34 AM »
 8)

Ya.

There seems to be a significant interest in the value and use of such a clearinghouse resource.. but who is really going to put in the work or provide the resources.. and if someone did offer up the home or $ to establish, don't the contributors then lose control of the final product?  And what of when their interest wanes?

I think we have it all right here at gca.com until Ran gives it up.. a distributed virtual connector.. and the world doesn't need to live by Google searches as a metric.. those truely interested in gca will find this website and contribute for better or worse.  There is a wealth of information to be mined from the gca.com archives with a little old fashioned effort.. and learned by reading, thinking, and perhaps even some repetition.

I am always amazed at how much or how hard some people will work at trying to do or think less for themselves..

Also, about 20 years ago, a co-worker's mother was visiting and saw my office.. with 15 file cabinets and numerous binders on top of them, she worked at the Philadelphia Public Library, and immediately wrote out a sign and pinned it on my bulletin board.. it read, "to file is human, to retrieve, divine."

I say use the present resources without creating some "new" filtering body..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

TEPaul

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2005, 09:47:07 AM »
".. but who is really going to put in the work or provide the resources.. and if someone did offer up the home or $ to establish, don't the contributors then lose control of the final product?  And what of when their interest wanes?"

SteveL:

Who is going to put in the work and provide the resources? That's the question isn't it? Who has the resources to probably do this as effectively as possible? Probably the USGA!

Don't the contributors lose constrol of the final product? What contributors are you speaking of? Those who contribute architectural material or those who want to access it?

In my opinion, any entity interested in seriously collecting these resources can not necessarily ask contributors of the material to give up control of it or they probably wouldn't be very successful in getting people to contribute it.

This kind of effort is very different from the USGA's "artifacts" collection. All that is original. The same does not have to be the case if they collect "information" (architectural material). That they can simply digitalize the material (information) from originals for ease of access for anyone---hopefully from PCs world-wide. The original material then becomes not particularly necessary to maintain at an entity such as the USGA, although clearly they could do that too if the contributors of the material wanted them to.

I don't know what you mean by what happens when their interest wanes? What were talking about is potentially an enormous effort that hopefully could turn into an extremely accessible tool for interested parties of any kind.

You should also know that an entity such as the USGA is probably not interested in collecting this information and digitalizing it all on their own. If there's entities out there such as the AAF or Golfclubatlas.com that has already done some of this there is every reason to assume they would simply hyperlink or hook up their access providing to that resource accessibility. It only makes economic and cost effectiveness sense to do it this way instead of spending the money to digitalize something that already been done for computer accessibility somewhere else. That's the beauty of these web-sites and hyperlinking.

The USGA may be interested in this effort for a single reason only that I feel we all should and will believe it, and that is EASE OF ACCESS TO IT ALL FOR EVERYONE THAT WANTS ACCESS TO IT!

Is there anything wrong with that? Is there any reason at all to suspect or blast an entity such as the USGA for wanting to do that and then doing it?

And if there is, I must say I really don't understand what's going on here. I really don't understand what the motivations and the goals of our contributors are if they have some problem with that which is nothing more than maximum ease of access.

I doubt an entity such as the USGA would be interested in creating a discussion group such as Golfclubatlas.com has whcih is a pretty unique entity. The USGA is very much aware of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com Very much aware! ;) An entity like the USGA would probably be interested in providing ease of access through computerization to information and then perhaps providing the "link" on their access site where those interested in discussing the info could do it on Golfclubatlas or an entity as effective as we are for discussion.

This, theoretically at this point, is a multi-pronged effort and idea to simply get all this material together for ease of access to it from anyone anywhere who wants to use it or is interested in it!

In my mind, this could be a huge boon eventually for greater understanding of classic golf architecture and eventually all golf architecture. In my mind this someday could turn into a useful entity that may be something akin to the USGA "Green Section" that of course deals very effectively with golf's agronomy.

In the case we're speaking of the same may be provided for golf's architecture!

Kyle Harris

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2005, 09:57:33 AM »
Wayne,

About your point with Google hits:

About two/three years ago when I started to really research Golf Course Architecture, I would look up such things as +"Huntingdon Valley" +"Pictures" +"Golf" and this site was ALWAYS first on the list.

So yes, I agree with you, this is a very accesible and used site... I started to peruse it after it came up a bunch of times and ultimately cited it in a number of essays I've written.

Either way, there are people that pay attention, even if they may be anonymous.

RDecker

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2005, 10:01:11 AM »
Steve,  I want to nominate you as Sargent at Arms and Tree warden right now.

wsmorrison

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2005, 10:05:46 AM »
I see, Kyle.  That's how I stumbled upon the site as well and quickly put it at the top of my favorites list.  I didn't realize that the search doesn't work that way anymore.  I sure would like to know why that is.

About those essays you've written.  I don't know what they are about but, if appropriate, would you consider posting them on site?  In My Opinion or wherever?

Kyle Harris

Re:HSGCA
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2005, 10:28:40 AM »
Wayne,

I am definately considering posting. I need to touch them up a bit.

They've pretty much stemmed from my own personal experiences here in the Philly area, and mostly on public courses (Five Ponds, Island Green... Jim Blaukavitch in general), with the occasional Huntingdon Valley and Whitemarsh Valley thrown in for good measure. I try to wring architectural work out of everything I play and some of those are my attempts at doing so.


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