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Mark W

Kapalua Plantation
« on: January 09, 2003, 10:57:04 PM »
What do people think of this course?  This is one of my favorite courses to play, especially when the wind blows the way Crenshaw and Coores envisioned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2003, 11:39:57 PM »
It is one of the all-time great cart-ball courses. It can't really be compared to golf courses, but if you like cart-ball...

Our hosts on the site love it:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/kapalua1.html

Dan King
Quote
"In no other game is the ration of playing field to goal so large. (Think of soccer, American footbal, lacrosse, basketball, billards, bowling.) we are spread wide as we play, then brought to a tiny space."
 --Michael Murphy (Golf in the Kingdom)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2003, 05:53:14 AM »
I've never been there but most say the holes are terrific. Unfortunately the green to tee distances are excessive, I hear. Even if Coore and Crenshaw could have tightened that up a lot I would think a 500 ft elevation change golf course would be tough to walk anyway.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Homing Pigeon

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2003, 09:17:07 AM »
Michael Murphy most certainly had a very narrow view of the range of sports in the sporting world.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Farrell

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2003, 11:15:00 AM »
Aside from the views, which are spectacular, I kept looking for the windmills, clowns mouths, and lighthouses to putt through. I can't believe the pros enjoy playing this course. I think they go because they're all winners from the prior year and it's a fully paid trip for them to Hawaii in January, and you're guaranteed a paycheck to boot. Nice way to kick off the year.

The layout itself isn't too bad. It's unique is probably its main factor. The flora on the sides of the fairway are definitely too penal. You can have a ball roll 3" into that stuff and it's gone! And you don't have to hit it there. On most of the holes any edge of the fairway will take the ball right to it.

It was the worst $175 I ever spent.

BF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2003, 11:38:13 AM »
Bob,

Sorry you had a bad day at the Plantation Course. You must have had a bad day because the native is hard to find due to the width of the fairways that C&C built for the windy conditions. I don't know what you found tricked up. Yeah the ball rolls a mile downhill, downwind, downgrain but the holes were built for that. It's part of the fun IMO. The uphill holes have a lot of challenge.  It's a course of great scale that does a fine job of fitting the difficult land on which the architects had to work. The scale (see other thread) is tremendous--how can you not enjoy the tee shots on 7, 17 and 18? It sounds like you played it just once. Try it again, you might like it more...

It's in my top 15.

All The Best,  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike_Cirba

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2003, 11:59:56 AM »
Never played it, and i know it's a fave of Ran others here, but is anyone else slightly disturbed by single-round scores of -9?! on what many feel is a "great" course?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2003, 12:27:22 PM »
Mike,

They said the winds were calm, which is highly unusual there.  Many great courses sans normal windy conditions can be lit up. Cypress, TOC, etc.  Name a great course in U.K. pretty much, except Carnoustie.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Perrella

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2003, 12:31:55 PM »


 Mike,

I'm not sure if Kapalua Plantation is in the "great" category but it is a very enjoyable course to play. My thought is that it is not necessarily the course that we like so much but how we may play the course. When the wind blows the Plantation allows you to play a multitude of different shots from many different lies. There are certainly some major distances between holes but in this case that may be offset by giving you more time to view the spectacular scenery.

  TOC certainly comes to mind when one is thinking of courses that are defenseless when there is no wind blowing. As you know my home course is much more of a bear when the doctor is up.

 I have played the Plantation several times and will definately play it again in the future.

            Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

henrye

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2003, 01:16:08 PM »
I think the course is unique due to its elevation changes.  It's also the only par 73 I have ever played.  My favourite holes are 11, 12, 17 and 18.  The tee shot on 17 is great, and while the pros seem to hit it so far as to take most of the challenge out of the 2nd shot, that valley is an extreme hazzard for me.  I've hit my second shot 50 yards so as to lay up short of the the valley.

I've never played it without wind and never paid less than $200, although I think they may jack up the price just prior to the tournament.

It is by no means one of the world's great courses, but in my book it is certainly one of the most unique.

For those walkers, forget it - too hot, too hilly and no caddy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2003, 01:22:18 PM »
Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike...

Surely you are trying to play devil's advocate, for I know you wouldn't judge a course that is designed for windy situations by the scores on a windless day. :)

This is hands down my favorite non major (& maybe the TPC) tourney the big boys play. This is a course where par is almost irrelevant - it's low score against the competition. On calm days they go low, on windy days they don't.

The tournament is also the closest thing on the PGA Tour to the antithesis of the normal dart throwing tournaments that are held week in & week out. For all the talk of how the course favors the big hitters, there's still guys like Furyk that do well every year. Look at Riley yesterday - I don't think he's a big hitter.

Long live the Mercedes at Kapalua - if they every go back to La Costa, I'll stop watching.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2003, 01:23:31 PM »
Wind.

I pay considerably too much attention to PGA Tour golf -- particularly during the Fantasy Golf season. I have been known, believe it or not, to keep a Live Scoring window open (albeit minimized -- much of the time) on my screen all day long!

Here is what I've observed, over five or six years of watching the Live Scoring more or less intensively:

If the scores are "high" (i.e., more than the Local Qualifiers' and a few of the head cases' being over par, and no one going low), the explanation -- confirmed by consulting www.wunderground.com on numerous occasions -- is invariable: The wind is up.

These guys are, in fact, good -- and the ONLY thing that can befuddle them is high wind (higher than about 15 mph).

Nothing else matters.

Which gives me an idea: If the Powers That Be are unwilling to give us a Competition Ball, to keep the Touring Pros from overwhelming any course of any distance, perhaps what the PGA Tour needs to do is to erect GIGANTIC wind machines alongside every fairway and behind every green.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2003, 01:54:05 PM »
Dan Kelly writes:
perhaps what the PGA Tour needs to do is to erect GIGANTIC wind machines alongside every fairway and behind every green.

Much easier way to deal with this dilemma. They could stretch courses as long as they want; give every contestant identical conditions; make wind and weather as nasty or benign as they like; eliminate divot holes, spike marks, rub of the green, spectator interference; make the game easier to televise and spectate; all with the push of a button.

All they got to do is stop playing golf on real courses, and start playing at PGA TourŪ virtual golf machines.

No need for a competition ball and setting up courses is a simple change. We'd also end up with more meaningful rankings, courses will be left to those that appreciate them, and there will no longer be a need to make courses longer for the one event a year.

Seems like a win-win.

Dan King
Quote
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
 --Jonathan Swift
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Wind Machine Salesman

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2003, 02:20:45 PM »
Speaking of Kapalua, has anyone seen Ben Crenshaw lately? He must be off somewhere playing vitual golf along with all the other pros who do not appreciate golf courses. Gee and I wanted a chance to mess up his hair.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2003, 03:00:08 PM »
WMS,

You got to win to play at Kapalua/Mercedes Championship, and unfortunately for Ben, he has been too busy building great courses to win.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

JAHogan

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2003, 08:09:55 PM »
Plantation is one of my favorite courses.  When the trade winds are blowing it is a fun, tough and fair test.  Virtually every hole can be played either through the air on with bump-and-run shots.  You really have to concentrate on all facets of the shot -- which can be difficult when one is distracted by the spectacular views.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ddavid426

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2003, 08:34:51 PM »
A question for you Plantation advocates:

I have a chance to play two rounds in March at Kapalua but it will be 3 days after the greens have been punched.  Is the course special enough to play the bad greens or should I opt for the village course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

johnk

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2003, 11:40:22 PM »

ddavid

If its your first time, the fact that the greens are punched
won't really matter...  they're never in really great shape
and they are so befuddling with the slope and grain that
whether they're punched or not, you putt about the same.

Definitely play it.  It's really the only architecturally interesting
course on the island.  I always get there and think :
so this is where the Norse gods
go to play golf during their winter vacations... :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2003, 11:46:10 PM »
George, George, George, George, George, and others.. ;)

Yes, part of me is playing devil's advocate, but sheesh guys...the lead is now -17 after two rounds.  Do I hear -34 for the winner on Sunday??

Is this the Bob Hope Classic??

Yes, I understand how a course built for the wind is sometimes a bit defenseless, but even during the most benign conditions for 4 days possible at The Old Course, Tiger Woods finished -19 for four days...not for TWO!

The other part of me says...shouldn't a "great" course be able to seriously test ALL levels of golfer, under almost any condition?  

I know "these guys are good", but this is getting a little silly and almost automaton-like.  It's also getting boring as watching paint dry.  

I'm not sure what the answer is, but it seems that technological improvements have become such an advantage at that level of play that "fun" courses like Kapalua Plantation just don't cut it as enough of a challenge.  

Then again, what courses are?  The cat's out of the bag and I'd be surprised if interest in the tour, even with Tiger's popularity, doesn't start a waning period.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2003, 03:50:27 AM »
Plantation looks like a lot of fun on TV.  It doesn't look like a serious test.  But it does look like FUN.

Is it one of our favorite courses because it flatters our game?  MeThinksSo.

I heard yesterday onthe broadcast that the course was built on 750 acres, whatever that means.  It must include areas not turfed.

Yesterday  I went to the local pathetic golf show to look at new equipment, look for a cheap old set of lefty irons and to find out about any new upcoming local courses I hadn't heard about.

I wound up spending time yakking with several club reps that I had met before about technology on a makeshift indoor range (Not bad, really).

Consensus:  New Drivers + New balls =  Bad for game of golf.  Even the reps.  They lament the elimination of driving as a proportionate part of the game.

For a variety of reasons, I hadn't swung a driver since September so I hit 5 balls in the long drive contest (Using a launch monitor indoors). Seriously pattycake swing, not to hurt myself  8), never a truly solid hit with Srixon range balls and a Taylor 540 8.5* behemoth..... three over 265 carry.  Best so far at that point 312.  You decide.

Another side discussion was "average" handicaps not having dropped in 15 years more than a single stroke.  Honesty with score reporting and more golfers playing were repeatedly mentioned.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2003, 07:45:08 AM »
If it is true that wind is a dominant factor in scoring, perhaps the pga tour shouldn't be playing stroke play? Isn't it all about fairness? It is just inherently unfair that certain tee times have an advantage over others. If it were match play this dis-advantage wouldn't be a factor.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2003, 08:24:27 AM »
Take heart everyone - wind is supposed to be up today.

Anyone catch the thing on Golf Central where they discussed building the course? I turned it on just as it was going off & didn't catch any replays.

BillV -

Golfsmith is having some sort of grab bag sale on lefty irons. You can buy a mixed set (3-PW, from different types) for something like $16.

265 carry with a soft swing? Must be the height - I gotta buy some platform heels.:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JohnV

Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2003, 12:34:52 PM »
George, don't feel bad, my LLTB has always been longer than me (at least with a golf club in his hand  ;)

As for Kapalua, the one time I played it, I played lousy so I can't say I love it because it suited my game, I love it because it requires every kind of shot and penalizes those who can't pull them off.  I loved watching things like Maryuama (twice) and Furyk have balls roll back past them when they hit it to the wrong spot on #15 and didn't hit the perfect pitch shot.  How many times do you see tour players playing low running shots like they have to do on holes like 18 anywhere else?  Not many.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
World top 30 in my book
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2003, 06:40:40 PM »
I do indeed consider the Plantation course as a 'great' one because:

1. It possesses great golf holes - 5, 7, 14, 17, 18.

2. The standard of hole is very high - what are its weakest holes? I couldn't nominate a single one as being less than a 6 out of 10, despite the difficult/awkward topography. For this reason, I place it a notch ahead of another, more famous island course- Mid-Ocean - which has some marginal holes (or at least 7 and 11 were before Doak began his work there).

3. Great green sites/short game interest - 4, 8, 10, 13, 15, which, apart from other obvious benefits, helps make the course interesting in no wind.

4. Tremendous variety found within the holes, from the longest hole on the PGA Tour (the 18th) to the tiny green at the drivable two shot 14th.

5. The Plantation Course possesses thoroughly unique holes - 1, 6, 9, 12 in addition to some others already mentioned - with an important result being the course (ala other greats such as NGLA, RM, Oakmont, Sand Hills, etc.) reminds one of no other course in the world.

6. The slopes in the landing areas off the tee combined with the fallaway greens and tightly mown green side banks highlight the joys of the ground game like few courses.

7. The requirements asked of the golfer continually shift, for instance bouncing an approach 10 yards shy of the front to back 7th green is followed immediately by the only forced carry on the course (the approach over a ravine to the well guarded one shot 8th).

8. The setting is genuinely spectacular at every turn, which still counts for something in my book and the development of the area hasn't compromised the course - there are no houses behind any of the greens, for instance. I would cry if some monster house was ever built behind the 7th green.

9. And as others have mentioned, the course is off the chart for FUN, in any wind. The golfer is constantly given the room/opportunity to invent shots, and to improve.

Yes, there are three tough green to tee walks but still.....the above more than compensates, at least for me.

IBF commented at the start of Sunday's telecast that the hole locations have been 'average' difficulty thoroughout the week. I can only imagine that the PGA Tour is anxious for the year's first event to get off to a flying start and in their mind, that translates to lots of birdies and the entire field under par.

On the infrequent occasion when a tricky hole location was used, the hole played much harder (example: the 12th hole was the only hole on the back over par on Friday, thanks to its right hole location).

If left to his own, Gary Planos would have great fun moving the holes around to some of the edges so that, for instance, the sight of a greedy approach sucking back 40 yards off the left front of the 10th green would occur with greater frequency. And when that starts happening, the pro golfer's entire thought process changes from one of attack, attack, attack to a more selective/defensive one.

But as at Royal Melbourne, stick the holes in the middle + no wind = lights out scoring. Unfortunately, much of the merit of the design gets masked when those are the cards that are dealt.

I still maintain: BRING THE PGA CHAMPIONSHIP HERE and let them set the course up fast/firm with the full range of hole locations. One upside - can anyone think of a more thrilling hole to end a major championship on?!

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Kapalua Plantation
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2003, 07:24:00 PM »
Ran:

I totally agree with you.  

The Plantation course is not only exciting, but it is, indeed, "great."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG