Unsolved Mysteries II

[T_MacWood]

This thread was derailed last time...let us give it another shot.

What are some of the unsolved mysteries in the history of golf architecture?

Here are a few:
What happened to Horace Hutchinson? One of the most important golf writers was stricken with a mysterious illness in the 1910's and never wrote about the subject again.

Why is the style of SFGC unique to Tilly's portfolio?

Why did Stanley Thompson do so little work in the States?

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I would love to hear what happened to Hutchinson. As of 1910 he was probably the most prolific golf writer in the world, editing and writing numerous volumes. I had assumed he died that year.

As for Thompson, he set up an office in Jacksonville in the late 20's. Obviously he wanted to do more work in Florida. He has always gotten partial credit for - my favorite hidden gem - Hyde Park. But I don't know why he doesn't have a larger body of work in the area. He was certainly there, at least for a while.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Hutchinson died in 1932. He wrote a golf related autobiography prior to WWI (published after the war), then nothing more. He continued to be a prolific writer, but not a golf.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thompson also had an office in Cleveland for awhile. I think he simply might have been busy enough in Canada to do much in the US.

[BCrosby]

O. B. Keeler - one of the most under-appreciated writers in the golf literature, imho -  began to cover golf full time for the Atlanta papers in 1916.

Prior to 1916 he specialized in feature articles about murders and violent crimes. He had never covered golf until he accompanied Jones to the Open at Merion in 1916.

From that day on he wrote exclusively about golf for the rest of his life. He never went back to the crime beat.

Bob  

[TEPaul]

Obviously, "Unsolved Mysteries II" is a thread that is interested in discussing unsolved mysteries in the history of golf architecture but Tom MacWood's contention on the last thread about unsolved mysteries where he said that his belief that George Crump's suicide effected the attribution of Colt's part in the creation of PVGC IS NOT GOING TO BE ONE OF THE THOSE UNSOLVED MYSTERIES considered for discussion!

The reason for that is he refused to answer legitimate questions about his contention and obviously he continues to refuse to answer questions about it.

So be it on this thread, I won't discuss MacWood's contention that he can prove the mystery of the manner of Crump's death and the resutling significance of it---but it should be noted anyway!

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Did Keeler write much about golf architecture?

Another mystery to me....how did Bob Jones and Cliff Robert's friendship evolve or devolve?

[Dr Katz]

Tom, Tom, Tom -

And I thought we had made great progress at our session a couple of weeks ago.

Let it go. Take a breath. Let it go.

Call my nurse and, per usual, get her to put you right through to me.

Felix  

[BCrosby]

Tom Mac -

I have not been able to find much by Keeler on architecture. His focus was almost always about playing the game. He was a lifelong golfer and not a bad player. His second wife was a nationally ranked amateur player in the '30's. The Keelers played a lot of golf with Jones at East Lake.

The Roberts/Jones relationship started in the late 20's when Roberts was an investment banker. They may have been good friends early on, but I always thought Jones saw him as primarily a source for big money contacts for getting ANGC off the ground.

It's pretty clear from the record that they began drifting apart soon after ANGC opened and the breach was more or less complete by the 50's. Jones specifically asked that Roberts not attend his funeral, for example.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

My favorite little tidbit and something of a mystery about Augusta National was the 19th Hole - "Double or Quits" or whatever it was called.

Always wondered why this hole was never built, or if it was, what happened to it.

Imagine having a Masters playoff on a hole like that!

Now that would be unique.

[TEPaul]

To me the all time biggest mystery in golf architecture and even golf itself is what would've happened if architecture and the managers of golf had understood better and embraced the philosophies of Max Behr? Of course it can only be a big "IF" at this point but it is a mystery.

His essays on a number of things to do with golf---architecture, playing rules, I&B rules, even handicapping or the aesthetics of sand or the psychological or intelligence evoking benefits of blindness in golf and architecture are intriquingly INTERCONNECTED to achieve an ultimate result.

But the one true mystery to me in all that Behr wrote is what is "skill" in golf supposed to be and not supposed to be? He came so close to defining it at least by analogy but he never really did. I don't know that anyone ever really has defined it as it relates to what he called that "delicate balance between the tools of golf and the relationship of the player and his ball with the earth.

But the question I think is mysterious in all of this is---is strength a component of "skill"? Has it been perceived as such in Golf? Should it be a component of the fundamental of "skill" as it perhaps relates uniquely to golf?

[Kyle Harris]

TEPaul,

Strength is a very large part of golf. In two forms, distance and endurance.

With distance there has to be a lower limit and upper limit as to how we measure skill with strength. Else we would all be content playing putting courses...

Endurance is more important though... in that a skillful golfer is expected to keep running through 18 or 36 holes...

So yeah, strength has something to do with it... However, I think it's becoming a little bit too important.

[frank_D]

brother Tom MacWood

was the ancient dutch game of KLOVEN the origins of the game of golf ?

who were the dutch people (the commoners, the elite, the clinically insane)  that played it ?

as jouneyed people - could they have copied the game from somewhere else in the world ?

if the caveman had time and the ability for ART - did they also have time for games ?  could the caveman have played early golf ?

[Kyle Harris]

Wasn't Kloven played on a uniform field with a two sided club?

I remember reading somewhere (Forrest Richardson's book, I think) about the differences that we knew between golf and kloven, and how while similar athletically, the rules and style were fundamentally different.

[Brian_Gracely]

Why do all the history books talk about Hogan's 1-iron on #18 at Merion, but Hogan's Five Lessons talk about Hogan hitting a two-iron?

Was it really just a coincidence that much of the underbrush and gorse (which might have had environmental issues), on the land for Pacific Dunes, was cleared by a fire just before it was built?  What started the fire?

[TEPaul]

"Why do all the history books talk about Hogan's 1-iron on #18 at Merion, but Hogan's Five Lessons talk about Hogan hitting a two-iron?"

Brian:

Maybe because the history book writers probably never actually asked Hogan. After many years of virtually being lost, the club he hit that shot with resurfaced, Ben Hogan confirmed it was the one he hit on Merion's 18th and it's now at the USGA in the "Ben Hogan" room. As to whether it's a 1 iron or a 2 iron one only has to go look at it. The mystery is over.

[tonyt]

Tom,

So the club on display has the 2 stamped on it? I've always thrown my hands up in the air when people talk of the "1 iron" shot that never was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony Titheridge,

What's always been more important to me is the fact that Hogan had to hit a very long iron into that hole.

Playing from the same tee he played from the hole plays as a driver wedge for very good amateurs, who couldn't come close to being another "Ben Hogan"

When I play the 18th at Merion, I always think of that famous picture, and pretend that I'm playing against Hogan.  I was always disappointed that I had a shorter approach to the green then he did ..... until recently when the tee was placed much further back.

I likewise think of the 4-iron that Norman, one of the best drivers of the golf ball in the world, left right on the 18th hole at ANGC.   A few years later, players were hitting sand wedges into that green.

The mystery that should interest us the most is, how was the ball allowed to get so long  ?

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Remember that was Hogan's 36th hole that day and he was rather tired which accounts somewhat for his club selection.  The next day in the playoff his drive was in about the same spot and he hit 4-iron.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Playing 36 a day wasn't uncommon, and Hogan seemed extremely fit.  2-iron or 4-iron, amateurs that can't hold his jock now blow it well past him, hitting wedges to the green.

[wsmorrison]

He was fit for a man nearly dead a year before.  He could hardly reach into the cup to retrieve his ball for much of the tournament as his legs were bothering him tremendously.  Although the sentimental favorite, few thought he had the stamina to win so soon after his accident, especially with 36 holes on Saturday.  

[frank_D]

brother Kyle Harris

yes and going further back in time - think about it - what were you told cavemen called their hand held impliments (tools) ?

answer - a CLUB !

and while the common theory is they clubbed their women for romance (remember deodorant had not yet been invented) , their mamoth wooly beasts for food / clothing and clubbed other cavemen to make a point (similar to some posts here) - is it so far removed to club a stone shaped object into a hole ?

[Kyle Harris]

Hmm, it would then appear that the modern problem of "Women or Golf" has its roots deep in our early history...

Personally, I feel it is very reasonable to assume that club and ball games that were similar to golf have existed for millenia... maybe not to a hole, but to some form of target.

Who knows? There could be an ancient desert course somewhere under the sands of Egypt? Imagine finding a full set of clubs (bag tag included) in some ancient Pharoah's tomb...

[ian]

Tom MacWood,

Why did Stanley Thompson do so little work in the States?

(Post war) 1920-1929 was a period of massive growth of Canadian golf. He was very, very busy, and likely didn't have much time or need to push into other countries. When you look at how much work he did including Banff, Jaspar and St. George's, etc. ; he didn't have much time

(Market crash) 1929-1932

The crash was in 29' but the low point of the crash was actually in the year after. The economy of the US and Canada was depressed for quite a few years out. I seem to remember reading that in the mid thirties drought devestated Canada as well.

1932-1935

Jones joins Thompson and they come up with the idea of building golf through government grants. Thompson takes Canada (Highland Links is a project borne from government money), and Jones takes all work in the US. That was there agreement.

1936 approx.

Jones leaves Thompson around or during the birth of Capilano. Stanley does some abroad, but his career slows down dramatically due with the coming of war.

1939-45

The war effects all of golf. He has also bought Cutten Club and plays fairly regularly golf, while working much less.

1945 to his death

He works much less because of a combination of health problems and limited opportunity. I have talked to a couple of people wh knew him at this time and they said that his heavy drinking had caught up to him and he struggled by mid day most days. His last driver/shaper also was in the process of consuming himself to death too. Most of the people around him like his nephew (not the brother) took other jobs as golf superintendents with the work drying up and Thompson's health quickly failing.

So why didn't he work more in the US?

-didn't need the work
-the war effected him at key points in his career
-an agreement with Trent at a key moment
-he was Canadian and not Scotish

People hired Scotish architects and golf pros only in this time. Bill MacWilliam told me about his father changing his name from an Irish McWillian to MacWilliam to ensure he got the job at St. Andrew's (NLE - S. Thompson) in Toronto. Stanley has often told people he was Scottish in order to get work, even though he was clearly born in Toronto.

Hope this helps explain the circumstance that had an influence, as opposed to direct facts or examples which I can not offer.

[BCrosby]

Which leaves the Horace Hutchinson mystery. Why did he stop writing about golf?

Bob