Field Goals

[Scott_Burroughs]

Great, now even kickers are primadonnas.  Punter Todd Sauerbrun was a head case when he first came into the league a few years ago, as was kicker Sebastian Janikowski.

Whatever happened to the happy-go-lucky kickers like Garo Yepremian?  "I kick the ball!"  

[A.G._Crockett]

Oops, my bad.  Time flies when you're having fun...

I do like the orginal premise of this, though.  I think that the change from straight-on placekicking to soccer-style is one of the huge changes in all of sports history in terms of strategy and tactics.  In days of yore, missed extra points were commonplace and FG's were difficult enough that the calculus on when to go for it on 4th down, etc., were totally different than today.

I don't think that the game has become better or worse because of this, though; just different.  In some respects, that may be instructive for golf, in other ways not.  In any case, I like it much, much better than the tennis analogy that has been discussed here from time to time.

[THuckaby2]

Oops, my bad.  Time flies when you're having fun...

I do like the orginal premise of this, though.  I think that the change from straight-on placekicking to soccer-style is one of the huge changes in all of sports history in terms of strategy and tactics.  In days of yore, missed extra points were commonplace and FG's were difficult enough that the calculus on when to go for it on 4th down, etc., were totally different than today.

I don't think that the game has become better or worse because of this, though; just different.  In some respects, that may be instructive for golf, in other ways not.  In any case, I like it much, much better than the tennis analogy that has been discussed here from time to time.

LIGHT BULB GOES ON!

Thanks, AGC.  I think I get it now.  Damn right, the advent of soccer-style kicking caused a sea-change in football, just as you say.  This is analagous to golf, again just as you say.

Add to this what football did regarding this change...Greater distance and accuracy of kicks meant they were attempted far more often, and the hue and cry was that it became to much of a kicking game.  So rather than stand pat, the football powers mitigated it with the rules change making a miss go first to the line of scrimmage, then later to the spot of the kick.  So now it seems to be an even wash... greater skill in kicking means more chance for last-second heroics, which is good, but the current rules mean that the war still gets won for the most part in the trenches, which is how football should be.

So the question is, is golf really at the stage football was in the 70s, with too many field goals, so to speak?

I'd guess Adam - and many others - say that we are - and thus rules changes are required.  I remain unconvinced.  But the evidence is mounting.

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom,
I'm not sure what the analogy means either; I want to ponder that.  I'm NOT in favor of a rules change at this point.  But I do think it is an analogy that has never occurred to me that is a lot closer to what golf has going on.

[Kevin_Reilly]

As I've posted before, the NFL responded to the "distance issue" on kickoffs by requiring the use of special balls for kickoffs some years ago.  These balls do not fly as far as the standard ball (inflated differently perhaps).  Result, less kickoffs deep or through the endzone.

The application of this to golf is that the NFL could have moved the kickoff spot back another 5 yds, or more (golf = lengthen holes by 30-50 yds) but they decided that kicking off from the 25 or 20 would have other negative consequences...for example onside kicks would become unappealing if done at the 20 yd line.

[THuckaby2]

As I've posted before, the NFL responded to the "distance issue" on kickoffs by requiring the use of special balls for kickoffs some years ago.  These balls do not fly as far as the standard ball (inflated differently perhaps).  Result, less kickoffs deep or through the endzone.

The application of this to golf is that the NFL could have moved the kickoff spot back another 5 yds, or more (golf = lengthen holes by 30-50 yds) but they decided that kicking off from the 25 or 20 would have other negative consequences...for example onside kicks would become unappealing if done at the 20 yd line.

AHA!  More lighbulbs - many thanks, Kevin.  So the NFL decided a deadened ball was preferable to a change in playing field... if that ain't analagous to golf than I am a monkey's uncle.  

And I don't think I'm that, but one can never be certain in my family.  

Bear with me, I remain slow on the uptake re many issues.

TH

[Dave_Miller]

There'd only be a ball arguement if suddenly 65-80 yard field goals became commonplace.
Of course with baseball's recent fiasco,we might have to investigate steroids first.
The pro field goal record is about 40+ years old-set by a guy with 1/2 a foot(unless I missed something in last few years-don't really watch pros anymore)
The kickers are certainly more consistently accurate these days

Dempsey's record at the time was 60 + yards and was on grass.
Best
Dave

[Jim Thompson]

Actually there is even a greater parallel than you know re the ball and golf.  The NFL does not use a different ball for kickoffs, field goals, and punts.  It is the same ball.  It is however a new ball.  The reasoning is a new ball has greater structural integrity relative to the leather seeming and bladder.  To put it into golf terms a well used / broken in football has a lesser compression and greater trampoline effect then a new ball.

Oh for the record, 43 yards after the left tackle jumped on a made 38 yarder to win 3-0 with 27 seconds to go

Cheers!

JT

[A.G._Crockett]

Actually there is even a greater parallel than you know re the ball and golf.  The NFL does not use a different ball for kickoffs, field goals, and punts.  It is the same ball.  It is however a new ball.  The reasoning is a new ball has greater structural integrity relative to the leather seeming and bladder.  To put it into golf terms a well used / broken in football has a lesser compression and greater trampoline effect then a new ball.

Oh for the record, 43 yards after the left tackle jumped on a made 38 yarder to win 3-0 with 27 seconds to go

Cheers!

JT

Jim,
I'm not sure what the difference is exactly, but there IS a special ball used only for the kicking game in the NFL.  It is marked with a "K", and a dozen are shipped from the league to each gamesite each week, and not opened until the game refs have them.  They ARE new, but they are only for the kicking game.

[Jim Thompson]

You are correct.  The K balls are specially marked to note their unused status.  That's why you always see a kicker trying to squeeze the back seem before they put it on the tee.  K balls are also serialed and removed from service after each game. The ball does NOT have a different inflation rate, weigh more, or have a different construction.  Its just brand new out of the box.  With no give.  They don't even let the ones kickers use for pregame to be allowed in the game.

As a coach, and former kicker, I can tell you nothing is worse then kicking new balls.  It hurts, alot!  For whatever you gain in consistency.  You lose in feel.  Think Balata vs. top rock.

[A.G._Crockett]

You are correct.  The K balls are specially marked to note their unused status.  That's why you always see a kicker trying to squeeze the back seem before they put it on the tee.  K balls are also serialed and removed from service after each game. The ball does NOT have a different inflation rate, weigh more, or have a different construction.  Its just brand new out of the box.  With no give.  They don't even let the ones kickers use for pregame to be allowed in the game.

As a coach, and former kicker, I can tell you nothing is worse then kicking new balls.  It hurts, alot!  For whatever you gain in consistency.  You lose in feel.  Think Balata vs. top rock.

Well, I've learned something!  I googled around, and apparently they want to keep the kickers from doctoring the ball; though the QB's are allowed to throw the game balls before Sunday.  You are absolutely right that kicking a hard, new (especially cold!) football will hurt and, more importantly, not go as far.  In fact, one article I read mentioned that punters don't even attempt directional punting at Lambeau Field; there is just no way to control the "K" ball under those extreme conditions.

Say, refrigerated brand new Top-Flites!  (Shivas already suggested this, except for the refrigerated part.  )

[Buck Wolter]

Didn't Dempey have a Prosthetic Foot or at least just half a foot with a special boot. None of that sissy soccer style for him but I wonder what the COR was on his prosthesis?

Huck-
I'm amazed at a 50 Yard field goal, I think a long field goal is one of the hardest things to do athletically. I'd have a better chance dunking a basketball. Having seen how many crappy field goal kickers there are in D-I I think you could have been on scholarship somewhere -- Iowa State missed the Big 12 Championship game this year when the kicker missed a less than 20 yard field goal.

[THuckaby2]

Buck:

Just remember this is with NO LINE, NO SNAP, NO RUSH.  Just me standing there with a holder, three step drop.  It's funny, I never thought of this as particularly impressive... I used to kick a lot with a lot of guys and in this scenario, damn near everyone with any leg could make it from 35-40.  At the time I was in good shape and I guess had a pretty good leg... so for me, 40 was easy.  Anything past that got problematic, for sure... and this 50 yarder came after a LOT of tries.  

So I guess full disclosure would be I did make it ONCE... but was likely about 1 for 50 from that distance.  Shit, odds are the wind was behind also - that I don't recall.

I do know I was pretty consistent from 40 though.  But again, no snap, no line, no rush.  Odds are my kicks were very low such that under real conditions they'd hit my own linemen.

I only posted this really because when Adam said he couldn't make it from 30, well... heck I am usually the king of exaggeration but that to me equates to not being able to make a 2 foot putt, for someone who's played college soccer anyway.  And we know 2 foot putts at times become problematic.  But in general, well....

 

TH

ps - I have ZERO chance to ever dunk a basketball, past present or future, all 5-8 and now close to 200 Caucasian pounds of me.  I know I could kick a 35 yard field goal even today as a fat old man... assuming you give me some practice time.

[Buck Wolter]

Other than the huge men trying to crush you I always thought that kicking is the closest thing mentally to golf. Whenever I see the shot of the kicker looking at those skinny little goal posts 40 yards away I think he'll never make it. Probably has something to do with my inaccuracy off the tee.

[Craig Sweet]

I have a friend, Errol Mann, former Detroit Lion, Oakland Raider kicker.  Errol was telling me about meeting Ray Floyd one day, and Floyd took him to the practice tee to hit some balls. Errol was dumbstruck by how consistant Floyd was....shot after shot...draw, fade,straight ball...it didn't matter...every shot landed within a foot or two of the last one.

That led Errol to tell me about HIS practice routine....Errol said he would stand on the **side line**...he would start right on the goal line and hook balls thru the goal post...sure not all went thru but he'd kick from there until he made so many kicks..and then he would move up the side line to the five yard line and kick..and so on until he got out to the 40...then he'd do it on the other side of the field.

Errol was a straight on toe kicker. He claims he could direct the ball flight just as well as a soccer style kicker...

[Doug Siebert]

I'm sure that kickers could beat the 63 yard FG record today.  Soccer style kicking is just more efficient than the straight on stuff done back in the day, and today's massive salaries can attract some guys who would have otherwise just got a college degree and went on to work a normal job 40 years ago.  And rules have changed a lot over the years.  The goalposts are 18' apart instead of 24', and if you miss a FG, the opposing team gets the ball at the spot of the kick.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think back in Dempsey's time a missed FG counted as a touchback, then in the 70s it was changed to be at the line of scrimmage when that was beyond the 20, then in the 90s changed again to the spot of the kick.

So if you attempt a 60 yard FG and miss, the other team gets the ball on the 50 -- that's even worse field position wise than going for it on 4th down and missing!  Thus it is very rare to see FGs over 53 or 54 yards attempted at any time other than the very end of the half or end of the game.  But I'll bet there are a few guys who could make them at 65 yards or longer if the coaches were thinking FG every time its 4th down on the opponents' 48 yard line.  Unless we see a team with a tremendous kicker and one hell of an amazing defense, we probably won't see that happen.

[THuckaby2]

Doug:

Love the Hawkeye.  To answer your question, my guess is:

the college football teams that have finished in top 8 final poll each of the last 3 years...

As for your field goal comments, well.. we seem to have a rash of "post without reading the entire thread-itis" lately.  Everything you said about the rules changes has been stated already.

Not that there's anything particularly wrong with a little duplication.. I just thought you might want to know.  

But your analysis as to why more long FG's aren't attempted, and why the 63 yard record may never be broken, is spot on.  The only way a 55+ yard field goal gets attempted any more is at end of half or end of game.  Hell, over 45 is getting to be a rarity.  And is because of the field position consequences of a miss.

TH

[Sean_A]

Boys

You need proper perspective on this kicking business.  Rugby players routinely nake 40 yard kicks and close to 50 is not uncommon at all.  This is with a larger ball and from angles the NFL would never dream of contemplating.  Also, these boys actually play during the entire game!  In terms of skill, the NFLers are not even close!

Ciao

Sean

[Doug Siebert]

Sean,

I don't think any of us are suggesting that the NFL kickers are more skilled than others who kick a ball for a living.  Obviously the most skilled guys are mostly going to play football of the non-US variety since you be can a worldwide star instead being sort of liked by your team's fans as long as you don't screw up.  Kickers very little respect from US football fans, so I think we've got proper perspective...

Though kickers often do pregame warmups kicking field goals from the sidelines with some pretty crazy angles so they do such kicks, there just isn't any use for them in the game.  If there was one thing I'd like to change about football's rules, it'd be to spread the hashmarks much further apart as it would make the side of the field you are playing from much more important, and make the kicking game much more dicey.  Back in the day when the goalposts were on the goal line and the hashmarks were a bit further apart, though really short FGs of less of 10 yards were probably pretty dicey from one hashmark.

In terms of respect, I don't think either American football or English rugby can hold a candle to the Australian rules football guys though.  They are frickin' NUTS!  Guess that's what happens when a bunch of convicts decide to put their own spin on a sport.

[Sean_A]

Doug

You are right about Aussie Rules Football.  Madness.  I have tried to watch and can't make head nor tail of the game.  It took me about a half an hour to realize the pitch isn't rectangular!  I never been so confused trying to watch a  sport.  People think hockey is difficult to watch!

Ciao

Sean