[Ran Morrissett]

As is evidenced by Tom H.'s best 18 holes (and anyone else who does the same excercise), long par fours get plenty of attention.

Same for short two shotters, which are darlings to many.

However, what about the inbetween length hole - the medium length two shotter? That hole never gets any press.

Once upon a time, I thought of such holes as ranging from between 350 yards and 410 yards with my all-time favorite being the 13th at Cypress Point. Gosh knows what a pro considers a medium length hole today - 440 yards  

The 13th may not be as cute as the 9th at CPC nor as famous as other holes on the course but it is still does more than just hold the course together. In the case of Cypress, it is perfect compliment to the difficult 12th and 14th holes and may in fact be more appealing than either.

Wonder what course(s) possess the finest set of holes from 350-410 yards? I wonder if any course built in the past 50 years would be on the short list? Perhaps Bandon Dunes, which is quite good in this regard, I must say.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ran, I will nominate Pebble Beach as one of the courses that has an abundance of great medium length two-shotters. My favorites in order of my preference is: #8 duh! , #9 #10 #16 #11 #13 and finally 15. Even the percieved weakness of 15 is in it's own right a perfect compliment to the course by giving the golfer somewhat of a breather after the potentially harsh uphill 14th.
While not one of your favorites SFGC also has a great stretch too. I just wish I had learned it. the way I was able to learn some of the other courses, in that section of the World.

[Ran Morrissett]

ACM,

How long to you hit?! If you consider 8,9, and 10 at PB as medium length two shotters, then your life should be full of lots and lots of member-guest invites!  

I was thinking of holes like 13 at Pinehurst No. 2 which at 385 yards, doesn't strike fear into anyone's heart, until the ball runs 20 yards back off the false front. I would say the 13th is just as clever as the more highly regarded 12th and 14th holes at No. 2.

16 and 13 at PB are two very fine examples, as you say, but I do wonder how much PB's 16th green may have shrunk over the years?

Cheers,

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pete Dye has an affinity for medium short par-4s or at least he used to -- Harbour Town, Casa de Campo and Long Cove have loads of them. Sand Hills has a number of them also, even if you don't consider the 449 yard 4th a medium length par-4, which it plays as.

[TEPaul]

I realize it's an old chestnut but I might have to say that Pine Valley's mid-length holes are definitely one of the best sets on one golf course in the world.

A few of them may seem like a bit outside what might be considered mid-length but the fact is they are so well designed and the "playability" of some of their options are such that even though appearing long on the card they can play to the mid-length par 4 variety (they can also play to the longer type if you play them wrong or differently)! For effective and sophisticated options that can make a hole play short or longer how can you top #1, #4, #6, #11, #13, #16? Then, of course, although not the same as those mentioned but how about #2? That can play as one of the longest 365yd par 4s sometimes!

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom P., You consider 13 and 16 at PV as medium length two shotters?!

Am I the only guy left in America who doesn't drive it longer than 250 yards?  

[TEPaul]

Ran:

When discussing golf course architecture try not to personalize things too much! You and I are no more than "blue moon" aberrations in this day and age--or put in noneuphemistic terms--we're WHIMPS!

But you're right about #13 Pine Valley, at least. There's really no way to consider that one a medium length two shotter unless you're looking at it in the context of Davis Love's 1980s Walker Cup performance of 1 iron/6 iron! But #16 is another matter--I don't know how the hole is measured exactly but if you can get the drive dead over the carry bunker you can turn even that hole into a medium length two shotter. Of course if you play out to the left it's anything but. #16 is the classic example of beautiful multi-optional/heroic/safe play design that produces a huge variety of what you do on your second shot!

[TEPaul]

Not to make you anymore depressed than you already are about your lack of length, but Davis Love in a practice round for the Walker Cup hit a thin 1 iron (very low) dead over the carry bunker and a 9 iron to the green! Sorry about that!

[A_Clay_Man]

Ran-  I pondered the term 'medium' and thought that those holes would qualify if you; 1. played the correct tees, 2. hit the shot desired.

There was an inhierent problem within your question for almost all the courses on the Monterey Bay. And that is, that even the pros add clubs when playing this extra-gravity ridden real estate. Now, for anyone who doesn't know this the closer one gets to the earth's core, the more gravitational pull there is. If you look at a topo of the ocean just off the peninsula one will find a steep drop-off of over 10,000 ft.
Could this be the cause for the extra clubs? Olin Browne told his CPC caddy that he adds 15yds to every shot when playing there. So, the definition of a medium two-shotter there is different than elsewhere.

[CHrisB]

(Breathing life into an old thread...)

I believe Merion has 7 holes between 350 and 410:  #s 1, 7, 8, 11, 12, 14, and 15, and they are certainly the best set of medium-length par-4s I've seen (haven't played Pine Valley).  Great bunker placement, some scary greens (esp. #s 12 & 15), the opening tee shot, the blind tee shot and the creek on #11, the stop-it-quick 8th green, and a couple of uncomfortable tee shots (#s 14 & 15).  #7 plays shorter than its yardage, but I wouldn't put it in the driveable category.  Placement over power to be sure.  Even after good tee shots, a player could have wedges or short irons into all of these holes and still play them well over par.

[BCrosby]

I haven't played a lot of the other courses mentioned, but ANGC has great medium lenth par 4's that fit beautifully between the holes before and after.

No. 1. - Followed by a testing par 5.

No. 7. - Preceded by an unforgivng par 3, followed by a manly par 5.

No. 9 - Preceded by the afore-mentioned par 5, followed by a majesterial 510 yard par 4.

No. 14 - A hole sandwiched by two of the best par 5's in golf.

No. 17 - Preceded by an unforgivng par 3, followed by a manly par 4.

That's a fantastic set of medium length par 4's that are superbly placed in the round. There are no back to back medium length par 4's on the course.

Bob

[George Pazin]

Our Lehigh contingent could do a better job filling in the details, but my recollection is that this entire course is full of wonderful medium length par 4s. Pretty much every par 4 is an interesting hole and they're mostly medium length. I think #2 would classify as short, but the rest of them seemed pretty much all medium length and all lots of fun. Uphill, downhill and sidehill shots & stances abound and the green sites are really terrific. You can play a round with one ball & still get your butt kicked.

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