Effect of the L wedge on architecture?

[Doug Siebert]

I will occasionally see comments from Patrick Mucci, TEPaul and others concerning the possible negative effect of the L wedge on architecture.  I'm skeptical of this, I'd like to hear what everyone thinks.  Whether we're talking pros, amateurs, or hacks.

My belief is that since a PW was 51 or 52 degrees in Hogan's day, and a SW was 55 or 56 degrees, there's not much difference between an old SW and today's 60 degree LW.  You have the older SW and want a higher shot, you open the clubface, just like one might do today for a really high shot using an LW.  I don't think there's anything anyone halfway decent at the game can do with a LW they couldn't do with a low bounce 56 degree SW.

Anyone know the origins of the LW?  When was it created, by who, for what reason?  Who popularized it?  Without knowing anything about it, my hunch would be that as irons started getting stronger lofts thanks to Ping and later other manufacturers, the PW got stronger and thus the SW got stronger to not leave too much of a gap.  Some players who played where lob shots were useful might have decided to buy an older high loft SW with less bounce than most from the used clubs bin, and found adding a few extra degrees of loft gave it a comfortable spread from their new stronger SW, and the LW was born.

So tying this back into architecture, I don't think there's any reason it couldn't have been invented back in the days of Snead and Hogan, but until irrigation made bare lies rarer, and collars of rough started surrounding greens, and later containment mounding around greens became popular, there wasn't a good need or role for the LW.  At least not often enough to justify carrying it.  Just like a 2W/brassie used to be a useful club for playing the maintenance meld of the 30s, but has so little utility in today's game it isn't worth carrying it as one of your 14 clubs.  I don't think the LW minimizes the effect of golden age architecture.  If anything it is enhanced since a good player has more options in certain situations.  Yes, it can be overused by people who play almost all their shots around the green using an LW, but IMHO that's a result of either the player or the architect (or both) lacking imagination.

[Sean Leary]

Doug,

I believe that Tom Kite was the first player who popularized it....

[Mike_Young]

IMHO the increase in green speed and the demise of the balata ball made the 60 equal to the 56 of 15-20 years ago.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Yes, it can be overused by people who play almost all their shots around the green using an LW, but IMHO that's a result of either the player or the architect (or both) lacking imagination.

FYI, Tiger and Annika use a 60 degree wedge for all their shots around the green...chips, short pitches, etc.

Ping I believe introduced the first LW...the 61 degree Eye 2 "L" wedge.

[ForkaB]

Good point, Mike regarding the influence of the demise of the balata ball.  I bought my first (and only) lob wedge in 1985.  It was/is a Ram, Tom Watson model, bought primarily for hitting high shots off of tight lies around the greens at links courses.  With a balata ball, it worked wonders (when the shot was executed properly, you could hear the ball whizz after you hit it--when not, well let's just say that my shag bag still contains many semi-severed balatas.....).  Today, with the ProV1's it seems to be far less effective, but maybe that's just me.....

[David_Elvins]

In 99% of cases the lob wedge has replaced a fairway wood or long iron in the bag, it has not replaced another wedge.  So it is the modern technology that has shortenend courses that has allowed players to play the lob wedge.  If you want to get rid of the lob wedge, change the ball or lenghten the course and you will find that players will sacrifice the lob wedge for a long iron or wood.

Perhaps the topic should be "Effect of Architecture on the Lob Wedge"?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think it depends on the course.

If you have a course that's playing fast & firm--fahgetaboudit!

If you have one of these week to weak PGA Tour courses, then the "L" wedge is your club!  Birds of a feather go together I always said!

I carry my 59 deg Callaway Hickory Stick simply because I like to have one that has bounce, (Ping Eye 2) and another that has a razor-sharp edge that can cut throught he toughest of surfaces.

I could be wrong about this, but wasn't Bob Tway the first to use the "L" wedge, and made it popular when he sank that sand shot on the 18th at Inverness for the PGA?

[TEPaul]

TommyN;

Although Patrick may have, I've never said I thought the L-wedge was negative to architecture. I may have said the L-wedge generally made recovery with a very delicate highly lofted shot more possible than with the older wedges but I never said I thought it was negative to architecture. All the L-wedge did (at least for me) is add a certain shot option that wasn't used in the old days as much as it has been in modern time. I've used an L-wedges for about 20 years and the real staple for me with it is the short to medium length bunker shot. It's just a lot easier to control that shorter distance bunker shot with an L-wedge than the old SWs.

I believe it was Frank Nobilo who said in the last 10 years that in his opinion the L-wedge was the single thing that made the game easier for the tour pro caliber player. That certainly may be the case but I never said that was negative to architecture. This shot many good players use today of almost a full swing to hit a ball straigtht up and often less than 10 yards is something I certainly never saw in the old days before the L-wedge.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think the Ping L wedge came out in '85.

I would almost look at it the other way; the L wedge was created by architecture, i.e., courses designed for the air game only created the need for a club that could throw the ball straight up in the air from around the greens because there were no other options.  

The other factor is the improvement of turf conditions creating the ability to hit the L wedge successfully.  If pros are using the 60 degree for chipping, it is a reflection of the perfect quality of the turf they are playing on more than anything else.

For most players that carry three wedges, the real change is the addition of a gap wedge.  The PW is stronger, the S is weaker (58 or 60) and they've added a gap wedge of necessity at 52-54 degrees.  Since irons have been delofted all the way down the set, nobody really needs a one or two iron anyway; the gap wedge replaced a club that nobody would have been (or could have been) hitting.

[TEPaul]

" would almost look at it the other way; the L wedge was created by architecture, i.e., courses designed for the air game only created the need for a club that could throw the ball straight up in the air from around the greens because there were no other options."

AG:

That's the most intelligent and logical opinion on the L-wedge I've heard on this thread yet. Modern aerial oriented architecture was probably the biggest inspiration for the L-wedge.

I had one of those Ping L-wedges from around 1985 too---and about wore the grooves off of it. It was the complete key to my short game success---I always used it around greens no matter what. And then about 5-6 years ago my bag got swiped--I've never replaced that Ping L-wedge from around 1985 and I've never again been anywhere near as good around the greens as I was with that thing!  

[Ted Kramer]

" would almost look at it the other way; the L wedge was created by architecture, i.e., courses designed for the air game only created the need for a club that could throw the ball straight up in the air from around the greens because there were no other options."

AG:

That's the most intelligent and logical opinion on the L-wedge I've heard on this thread yet. Modern aerial oriented architecture was probably the biggest inspiration for the L-wedge.

I had one of those Ping L-wedges from around 1985 too---and about wore the grooves off of it. It was the complete key to my short game success---I always used it around greens no matter what. And then about 5-6 years ago my bag got swiped--I've never replaced that Ping L-wedge from around 1985 and I've never again been anywhere near as good around the greens as I was with that thing!  

I would be happy to hunt down a Ping wedge for you if you would like. If you are interested just let me know the details . . .
eye2? eye2+? eye2+no+? becu? etc - I'd be happy to help.

-Ted

[Mike Benham]

Is the real issue the loft of an L wedge (60 degrees) or the design of the grooves (whether it is U shaped or square, the edges of the grooves are much sharper then the traditional v shaped)?

[A.G._Crockett]

Is the real issue the loft of an L wedge (60 degrees) or the design of the grooves (whether it is U shaped or square, the edges of the grooves are much sharper then the traditional v shaped)?

By and large, I would theorize that the answer is no.  The clubhead speed isn't sufficient for the grooves to be a big factor on most shots around the green; the additional loft would be the key.  

[Doug Siebert]

Interesting point, Shivas.  Whether due to Pelz or other factors, I'd add that by the mid to late 80s being at the top of the tour without a good short game was almost impossible.  Compare with Nicklaus in the 60s and 70s who while certainly better around the greens than amateurs, was believed by most everyone to be fairly weak around the greens compared to most of the tour.  I think it was in the early 80s when Nicklaus realized he could no longer rely on power to win on tour and started working with Phil Rodgers to improve his short game.  Other players seeing that might have begun to think about how they might be able to improve a bit around the greens as well and started looking for solutions, opening the door for some new ideas beyond what they learned as kids.

It probably didn't hurt that right around that same time the tour started replacing all their classic layouts with generic stadium courses that have all the deep rough around greens and containment mounding that almost requires a LW.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ted,

I'll take you up on that.

Ping, eye 2, L-Wedge, green, Berylium.

Doug, et. al.,

There's not a doubt in my mind that the L-wedge obviated architectural features like the Germans did the Maginot Line.

Features formerly given a wide berth were attacked because the ability to recover from sand or rough took a quantum leap with the L-Wedge.

You could get back spin out of the rough around the green, you could hit shots NEVER before attempted, ala Mickelson and Tiger, that went straight up and straight down.

You can play the ball back in your stance, hit a low liner with about 10,000 rpm's that takes two bounces and comes to a dead halt, or you can flop a shot backwards, something never even contemplated until Mickelson did it at will.

Bunker play improved dramatically.

At a time when "wristy" play had become extinct, the
L-Wedge allowed golfers the luxury of playing shots most were totally unfamiliar with.

You can open the blade of your sand wedge all you want and as you do so, the margin of error decreases dramatically.

Having an L-Wedge allowed you to get close to a green IRRESPECTIVE of its configuration or prefered angle of attack because that L-Wedge could execute a shot previously unimaginable, either an ultra high flop, or a shot with incredible spin that stopped on a dime.

If L-Wedges didn't help anybody overcome architecture, why do all the PGA Tour Pros, the best golfers in the world, carry them.

Why don't they revert to their pitching wedge and sand wedge ?

[Mark Brown]

AG

I think you're right about the modern designs creating the need for the L wedge. When I go back to PA to play the older course I grew up on I hit mainly lower pitch shots, and it's fun to play the bump and run game. I some areas it's become a lost art. I still prefer my old Sarazen 56 degree wedge because it has no bounce and I just open it up a little. Plus it's better in firm sand, which is what you find in most courses today.

[Yancey_Beamer]

I remember in the 80's Bill Orr of Custom Golf House in Orange,CA built a 60 degree wedge for Tom Kite.
As Pelz was working with Kite I would believe that this wedge was definitely noticed.
I have a Phil Rodgers short game tape from about 1984 that features a 60 degree wedge.I believe it was bent from a 56 degree sand wedge.
The point has been made that the lob wedge essentially replaced the lob shot.It was  no longer necessary to open the blade of a sand wedge and lob the shot.Simply hit the  60 degree wedge straight.

[TEPaul]

Mike Benham:

Apparently the sharpness of the edges of the grooves have little or nothing to do with the performance of the golf ball--other than potentially striping the paint on the ball if they're too sharp.

(this from golf equipment manufacturer Barney Adams)

[texsport]

Is the real issue the loft of an L wedge (60 degrees) or the design of the grooves (whether it is U shaped or square, the edges of the grooves are much sharper then the traditional v shaped)?

I believe that tour clubs  have even more advanced grooves than simple U or V grooves these days.

The TaylorMade "Tour Only" Y grooves are designed to further increase spin out of the rough as well as from everywhere else.

Callaway Roger Cleveland wedges also have a newly design type groove to improve spin from the spinach.

The latest multilayered balls are also sporting thinner covers for more spin.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

John, you are correct, there are a number of different groove types out there.
At Nike for instance Tiger prefers a certain shape of groove on some clubs, another shape on others.
Some of their other staff players like a totally different groove.

I think the biggest differenece with the lob wedge is that it enables the better players attack tight pins with less of a concern than it used to.
If you miss the green..ie short side yourself..that has become less of a problem than it used to be, especially when combined with the abililty to control the spin of the ball with more consistency with the current balls.

I am not saying the current balls spin more, but it is easier to control the desired spin than it used to be.

[TEPaul]

"Callaway Roger Cleveland wedges also have a newly design type groove to improve spin from the spinach."

John Kendall Sr;

According to Barney Adams the grooves themselves do not put spin on the ball per se, a clean face does. Barney refers to grooves as "garbage cans". The larger the grooves in terms of displacement space the more "garbage" (spinach) they're capable of displacing off the face when a player hits the ball.

[Ted Kramer]

"Callaway Roger Cleveland wedges also have a newly design type groove to improve spin from the spinach."

John Kendall Sr;

According to Barney Adams the grooves themselves do not put spin on the ball per se, a clean face does. Barney refers to grooves as "garbage cans". The larger the grooves in terms of displacement space the more "garbage" (spinach) they're capable of displacing off the face when a player hits the ball.

. . . thus increasing spin.

-Ted

[Tom_Doak]

Doug:

When I worked for Pete Dye twenty years ago, he believed fervently that one of the few weaknesses of Tour pros was from 100 yards down to 40 or 50.  He tried to design short par-4's and par-5's which were pinched off at 100 yards out from the green, to force the pros to lay up in the areas that made them uncomfortable.

Dave Pelz taught Tom Kite how to use three wedges to master those distances, and that was the end of that.