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Jimmy Muratt

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Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« on: February 03, 2005, 05:01:23 PM »
I just read an interesting Golf World article on Ojai Valley, which was designed by George Thomas in 1923.  I have never visited Ojai Valley but am intrigued as it's one of the few designs of George Thomas.  The article goes on to say the following regarding the restoration of two lost holes:



by Peter Finch:

"Its centerpiece is a George Thomas Jr.-designed golf course, one of only three to which the public has access (the other two are at Griffith Park GC in Los Angeles). Thomas, of course, is renowned for his Los Angeles troika--Riviera CC, Los Angeles CC and Bel-Air CC. The Ojai course is now virtually identical to the one Thomas designed in 1923. Two integral holes that were lost when the U.S. Army requisitioned the property during World War II have been restored by architect Jay Moorish and his son, Carter. They replace two nondescript holes."

"The better of the two restored holes is the par-3 16th, 203 yards from the blue tees, seven bunkers fronting the green, a 50-foot barranca to the left with out of bounds to the right. The restored 17th is a 403-yard par 4. "The holes fit in so well with the rest of the golf course," says Mark Greenslit, director of golf. "This is the way it always should have been."

Link to entire story:  http://tinyurl.com/4heyh


For those who have played it, what are your thoughts?  Looking at the course description from it's website, #9 looks like a fantastic mid-length par 4.....

« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 05:02:44 PM by Jimmy Muratt »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2005, 05:21:00 PM »
Jimmy, Mark Greenslit can be credited for the recent rash of changes to this once great classic.

He's widely considered by many to be the idiot that is further ruining the course. Count me as one of those that think that statement is true. The proof being from the sounds of it that the original #3 & 4 are now #16 & 17.

Jay Moorish and son Carter deserved to be kicked in the huevos for what they have done here.

Pete Lavallee

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2005, 05:29:27 PM »
I just looked at the web site and the routing seems to be very disjointed; the 18th is a par three (the old 8th), and finishes a full par 5 away from the club house and first tee. Will there be a ferry service for those who wish to walk? Oh wait I remeber David M. says walking was not allowed, what a shame. They restored the par 3 only after Ben Crenshaw shamed them into it. How could Moorish restore a classic Thomas course without even reading his book! :-[ There was a picture of this famous hole in it; they could have saved a lot of money getting the job done right in the first place.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Bill_McBride

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2005, 06:20:06 PM »
I visited Ojai last summer and just toured in a cart with one of the marshals.  They were very nice to let me do that.  The course wasn't torn up but the hotel was, lots of plywood walls enclosing construction areas, and a lot of back and forth and weird routing things going on.  

The illustrated par 3 appears to be crying out to become a Redan!  All those bunkers are ludicrous, one or two well placed bunkers would do the trick.   The par 4 going back in the opposite direction is a very good looking hole.

The holes which were early in the back nine are shortish, cross back and forth over a barranca, and will now become #2,3 and 4 maybe, I think.  Anyway, they will come far too early in the routing to be as much fun as they would seem to be later in the round.  Also, #1 is going to be by the driving range, which has a huge net around it.  All in all not a pretty sight, althought the terrain and vegetation there is just spectacular.  A missed opportunity.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 06:21:03 PM by Bill_McBride »

Dan Grossman

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2005, 09:00:43 PM »
There is a wonderful picture of #3 in Thomas' book Golf Architecture in America.  When you examine the picture in the book after having played the hole, it is hard to understand how they consider the hole to be restored.  The current bunkers don't resemble what used to be there and I believe (based on an analysis of the picture) that you would also have to remove the cart path to truly restore it.

I don't know what they have done with the hole numbering.  Based on the fact that it is drastically different now that when I played it (about 4 years ago) and Doak's comments in his book, it sounds like they renumber the holes everytime they need to reorder scorecards.  According to the website, #3 above is currently playing as #5.

Jimmy - #9 that you speak of used to be #11.  It is a wonderful par 4, although it plays fairly short.  It is a 2-iron, wedge hole.  The best holes (and I believe the ones that have been less altered) are the old back nine.  Based on the routing on the website, it consists of #8 through #16.  

I have a couple of pictures of the course which I will try to post if I can figure out how to load stuff onto my Verizon webspace...

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2005, 10:06:54 PM »
Tommy,

With your graphic computer talents, could you post the original and current routings, one underneath the other.

I read the article and from the tone of it, it sounded too good to be true, especially in light of what you had told me about the course a year or so ago.

How large an undertaking would it be to return the golf course to its original form ?  Is that possible ?

Bill_McBride

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2005, 10:23:55 PM »
Pat, I don't think it would be possible to return to the original routing.  There are a couple of abandoned holes, one of which was the 18th but is now used as a chipping and bunker practice area.  The barranca holes are a treat but most of the rest is now pedestrian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 10:40:37 PM »
Bill,

What was the reasoning behind altering the original course ?

Whose idea was it ?

And, why did they, and/or the owner think the course needed altering ?

Bill_McBride

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 11:06:21 PM »
The most recent renovations seem to have a lot more to do with the hotel than with the golf course.  I think the hotel management is running things and the golf course is suffering as a result.  Tommy has a much longer perspective, hopefully he will chime in here.

Brad Klein

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2005, 12:56:42 AM »
Field research, Friday, 8:50 a.m., Ojai Valley Inn. Can't wait to see this place. Thought the old images in Thomas' book were wonderful, then was stunned to find out (as I wrote then) that after Jay Morrish worked on the course he hadn't known about those old photos
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 08:10:15 AM by Brad Klein »

Daniel_Wexler

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2005, 03:05:23 AM »
"The Ojai course is now virtually identical to the one Thomas designed in 1923."  -- Peter Finch

Even in a golf world where standards of accuracy are virtually nonexistent with regard to such pronouncements, this may be the single most ludicrous statement I've ever heard.

DW


« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 03:07:57 AM by Daniel_Wexler »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2005, 03:32:55 AM »
Thank you Daniel.

Brad, Now I see I should have been in touch with you earlier on Thursday! (I have a copy of the 1929 aerial if you want me to send it. I must caution you though. It will make you sick when you see what they have done.)

Dan Grossman

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2005, 01:03:53 PM »
Let me see if I got this right:

Old #3 (from Thomas' book)


Restored #3 (from Ojai website)


My scanner isn't great, so I apologize for the quality of the picture from Thomas' book.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 01:15:09 PM by Dan Grossman »

Dan Grossman

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2005, 01:16:23 PM »
It looks to me on #16 that the green was pushed back with some bunkers added.  

#16 from Thomas' book



Picture I took of #16
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 01:20:53 PM by Dan Grossman »

Brad Klein

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2005, 06:15:38 PM »
Report from Ojai. Weather was great.

Some wonderful holes, and also a few weird ones. They've switched ninees, so that the restored par-3 is now the 7th hole. The above photo doesn't show the huge house (!) being framed out right behind the green.

The old 16th hole picured above is now the 16th again.

Classic vintage on an amazing piece of land, large sprawling resort property in the middle, abandoned holes to accommodate hotel expansion, restoration to reclaim heritage and reroute holes. Reminds me a lot of Samoset.

Evan_Green

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2005, 06:24:53 PM »
Brad-

I have to say all the routing changes there are quite confusing...

Are they now letting you tee off from what is now supposed to be the 1st hole at the real pro shop?

When I was there this summer, the first hole they had you play is what I believe is the "3rd" hole - the course started there because they were doing fairly extensive work on the resort. There was a temporary pro shop shack where you started

I really liked the 11th(?) hole - short dogleg right where you hit over the ravine (It was in the Golf Magazine Top 500 holes book)- A very nice course now, but I would have loved to see this course in the old days...

Brad Klein

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2005, 06:29:02 PM »
As long as you follow the signs you can get to the next holes. They were missing one as I came off the 18th and I wound up dead-ended in the spa parking lot.

The 11th would be cool except for a massive tree in the baranca off the tee on the left that totally blocks a view of the entire fairway. I just hit over it but it's a helluva wasted view.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2005, 06:36:28 PM »
Brad, what did you think of the driving range enclosure by what I guess will be the first tee?

Makes Rustic Canyon's driving range fencing look like the Taj Mahal!

I really did love those shortish holes which went back and forth across the barranca.  Kind of like mini-Pasatiempo!

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2005, 07:17:22 PM »
I am confused. I toured the course last April right after KPIII with the head pro. He indicated he was doing the restorations which were being done. He also indicated that much of the course was changed form the Thomas design and would not be touched.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2005, 07:34:49 PM »
Eight was the other "restored" hole, here is an image behind the green.



The famous 11th


The short par four 15th, which probably should go in Fortson's thread on the 10th at Riviera...

Brad Klein

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2005, 08:13:11 PM »
Bill McBride:

I rather liked the uniformity of the netting poles down both sides of the range. Fit in very nicely with the overall land plan.

Let me say again, there are some wonderful holes out there, and the par'3s are all very interesting to play, esp., the two short ones (12, 17) on the front nine. Also, playing across the ravines on drives (8,9,13,14) was really old world, as were the approaches across it (11, 12). But there's some anomalous stuff as well, and some obvious routing hiccups.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2005, 08:14:12 PM by Brad Klein »

Craig Disher

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2005, 10:08:39 PM »
Tommy,
Can you help me out with some Ojai history? I'm looking at a 1953 aerial of Ojai and can't see any similarity between it and the routing shown on Ojai's website. Did the resort open after the war with a rough 9-hole version of the original? The 1953 course looks like it might be a 9-hole course (the holes are mainly to the north of the inn); the area to the south of the inn and road has traces of greens and bunkers but no evident holes.  It's also possible that the entire course has been abandoned and what's visible are just the remnants from the course before the war.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2005, 12:13:19 AM »
I'll back Tommy up on this one - Those two new holes - #16,17 are a blight on an otherwise special property.

#16 - You get the sense that the desired yardage and property line dictated the green site - rather than the original design intention.  Never seen a Thomas par 3 like that one.

However - Some of the other holes are wonderful, well worth seeing.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2005, 12:23:57 AM »
Craig,
Billy Bell & Son came back in 1948 and remodeled the course, changing many of the holes, more specifically the old 3rd which became abandoned along with the old 4th.

Two new holes happened upon the scene, both par 3's, and after talking to Geoff tonight, I'm still not 100% sure if this is correct. Your information certainly brings more to the table and as always, is more then welcomed.

I had just finished what I thought was various routings the course had experienced and what I have wrote about in the past. (I did in fact write and article for Orange County Golf magazine back in 1998, and even then the information at hand was quite iffy. But here is what I have seen so far, and if you do have that aerial from 53', I would be very appreciative to see it. I know I did in fact send you the one from 1929, correct?

Anyway, here is what I though the routing was, and I do think this is going to be questioned by Geoff, who is the ultimate authority.

I also want to say, that while sometimes harsh on certain indviduals at Ojai, and that treatment may not meet favor with certain individuals--most anything that Crown Management and Mark Greenslit, the Director of Golf have done concerning the course has been a disaster. Reading Tiger John's post reassures me of this.

And Mark, if you by chance happen to be reading this, "YOUR NO GEORGE C. THOMAS!"

Do note that the 13th is showing another greensite. This was done by the Bell's. Old #2, was a much different hole then it shows here. The old bunkers are still sitting in dormant, covered in grass on the left side of the fairway. More important, where the Superintendents building and turf nursery is, used to be what looks like a wall of some sort, and the carry was more then likely replicating the Road Hole to some degree. I'm not saying it was a Road Hole, but in the 1929 aerial, you can see two bunkers sitting directly in front of it.




Bill_McBride

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Re:Any opinions on George Thomas' Ojai Valley?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2005, 12:39:00 AM »
It's funny, Tommy, but you are showing #10-18 all the same through the years.  During my visit I was told that that would now be the front nine!  That would be such a routing disaster!  The flow of the course would be nothing like the original.

It's interesting to see your aerial with the red lines for the original 1921 Bell/Thomas routing.  It's pretty obvious that #3 must have been a dogleg left par 4.  There's no way in hell they would have made a golfer walk from the 2nd green a couple of hundred yards to that 3rd tee.  It MUST have been a par 4.  Thoughts?

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