[Mark_F]

The Victorian Open, a relatively minor league tour event down in Australia was played art Woodlands the past few days.

This is a course that generally has some of the smaller greens in Melblourne, however, several of them, in particular 2,4,6,13 and 15 are also extremely narrow, and missing on the wrong side is pretty much death, although missing on the correct side isn't a whole lot of fun either.

One player almost drove the 251 metre 4th, but was on the side as opposed to front on, and took SIX more to get down.

I seem to remember somewhere Jack Nicklaus the designer being criticised for having narrow diagonal greens.

Are narrow greens a positive feature on many great USA courses?

Are they lacking, or badly done, on many modern courses?  

[Tyler Kearns]

Mark,

I think narrow greens are a great way to force players to play accurate approach shots, and enhance the challenge of the hole. Due to the orientation of the green, recovery shots can be problematic because the direct route to the hole does not offer a lot of "green" to work with, and hazards on the opposite side of the green evoke much consideration. Orient this type of green on a diagonal to the centre of the fairway and the golfer must be evermore accurate, because they have a smaller range in which to hit the ball and stay on the putting surface.

This design strategy is especially good on short two-shotters because a long drive that yields a half-wedge shot is rendered much more difficult with a smaller target, and hazards immediately in front & behind the hole. Anything more than par figures on such holes and many players suffer a psychological double bogey that is often much more debillitating than the bogey on the card.

TK

[Mark_F]

Tyler,

Your second paragraph summed up everything that was brilliant about Commonwealth Golf club's old first hole - a 260 yarder that could be driven, but to miss either side left a half wedge shot you'd have better luck of keeping on the green if you hit the shot with a tea strainer.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I think the narrow green is perhaps one of the coolest and most interesting, and most sophisticated architectural offering of all. Some narrow greens (list below) are some of the best, most respected and famous holes in the world of golf but I think the real key to the success of the narrow green on a golf course is to never do too many of them!!!

Great examples:

The Best in the world, in my opinion, is;

1. Riviera's #10

Followed by (those that I know);

2. PVGC's #8
3. PVGC's #12
4. Pacific Dunes's #6

The real beauty of these greens and holes, in my opinion, is the architects of them had the talent and the sense to construct fairway arrangements (in combination with these narrow greens) that're quite wide and consequently give the golfer distinct choices off the tee to make an approach to these greens to a target that's EITHER narrow and long OR wide and shallow!!

[cary lichtenstein]

At my home course, The Ritz in Jupiter, that is exactly what Nicklaus (Jim Lippe) did.

Add to the mix deep greenside bunkers, short cropped grass, and Donald Ross type fall off areas, you have a very challenging set of greens.

You must be a good and creative chipper because you can't just use the lob wedge for every shot.

[TEPaul]

cary:

Never seen that hole at the Ritz but from your description one should begin to ask when will Nicklaus (Lippe) begin to get more credit on a website like this for the things they've done recently or are beginning to do?

I think, it really would be interesting to be "on-stie" and a peripheral observer these days of the conceptual collaborations at Sebonac between Doak and his team and Nicklaus and his team.

Who knows who may be influencing whom in little ways?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Add ANGC's 12th and Pine Tree's 13th to the list of narrow or angled narrow greens.

Boca Rio's 2nd & 15th hole have them.
One of the regrets about the work at Boca Rio was that the 4th and 5th green lost some of their angle, which added to their distinctive character and difficulty.

Aren't all redans angled greens that play narrower then they measure ?

With a little wind they present very difficult challenges to every level of golfer

[BCrosby]

Pat just made the point I was going to make.

Redan greens are effectively narrow greens set at an angle. Isn't the same true for Biarritz greens? In effect you have a shallow pinnable area (or two) set perpendicular to the axis of the hole? In fact, isn't any shallow green a narrow green?

I like the very narrow 12th (?) green at N Berwick. A par five that has a narrow green set into a ridge on the left with a deep bunker on the right. A wonderfully dicey green on a reachable par five. I don't know why such greens aren't built more often on moderate length par 5's.

Bob
 

[Mark Brown]

Surely there are many great holes with narrow greens, but generally I think it limits the imagination of the architect and minimizes the use of strategic angles in design and the variety of pin placements that enables the course to be set-up in a number of different ways. The course I think of first is the Old Course at St. Andrews, and how much fun it is to play.

Spyglass No. 7(?) is about as narrow as it gets, although it has banks on both sides.

[David_Madison]

Cary:

Are your greens at the Ritz similar to what Nicklaus did at Mayacoo Lakes? Those were some of the toughest targetsI've ever tried to hit, especially with a cross-wind - - very narrow, elevated with deep bunkers squeezing in from one or both sides. It didn't matter how short a hole played, as the targets were tough to hit with wedges.

My home course was designed by Nicklaus/Lipe, and most of the greens are angled to the fairways. While most are not particularly narrow, they are multi-tiered. This combination yields a generous number of cup locations, but even our largest greens require approach accuracy to avoid difficult recoveries or potential 3-putts.

[JWL]

cary
While I agree that the Ritz Club is a very nice golf course, with some interesting green complexes, you should be aware that Jim Lipe (who you mentioned as Jim Lippe) had nothing to do with the design/construction of the Ritz Club.  Just FYI.

[Eric Johnson]

Spyglass No. 7(?) is about as narrow as it gets, although it has banks on both sides.

Mark,
I think you are referring to #4 at Spy....

[Jason Topp]

Ballybunion.  My recollection is that most of the holes have narrow greens but the recovery shots are nonetheless fun to play.

[Mark_Fine]

I love narrow greens.  You don't see as many mainly because of agronomics (not enough pin positions and heavy traffic wears them out).  They can be very strategic and offer all kinds of interesting shot options.  

Although I'm not into "lists" like Tom Paul who cited the "best in the world" narrow holes  , I think #15 at Fenway deserves mention.  Again the problem with a green like that is there are so few pin locations that if the course got a lot of play, the green would have no grass on it.  For a private club with limited rounds, however, I'd design something like that in a heart beat.  

By the way Tom, it would be interesting to see how Tom and Jack sort things out.  I interviewed both of them for our Hazards book and it's fascinating to hear their different ideas and opinions on such design features.  Clearly the design will be a "compromise" but that is why they were both hired.
Mark

[Mark_F]

TE Paul,

Thanks for your input.

You've mentioned Riviera's tenth a couple of times, and I've always been intrigued by photos I've seen of the hole.

Which is the harder shot, drive or second?  

And what about the green?  Is it an interesting green that matches the rest of the hole?

Thanks.


Jason Topp:

I think the fact that the recovery shots are fun to play is the key to the hole.  It's exasperating, sure, to take five or six more after driving within fifty yards or so of one of these greens, but it isn't as painful as other forms of torture on a golf course, like heather, for example.  

I think

[James Bennett]

Mark Ferguson

I have never seen Riviera's 10th, but it is featured in an old Nicklaus video of 'his greatest 18 holes in Championship golf'.  The green is orientated towards the dogleg, with a punchbowl element at the rear and a right to left slope at the front.  All of this penalises the drive played straight at the green.  The visual aspect from the tee (according to Jack) also encourages play straight at the green, whereas the preferred play is across the fairway bunkers to the left of the green.

Its nearly 30 years since I played at Kingswood in Melbourne.  The discussion of the 10th at Riviera reminded me of the 10th at Kingswood (if it hasn't been changed).  My recollection was that the hole, like Riviera, was a driveable dog-leg right par 4 (well some clould drive it, not me! ) heading away from the Clubhouse.  Kingswood had a copse of trees to the right for a sprayed long drive (unlike Riviera), had a green orientated away from the direct line from the tee and towards the dogleg, bunkering on the right side particularly affecting the shot straight from the tee.  I can't recall how wide the green was, but I suspect a bit wider than Riviera.  I think the green sloped right to left as well, adding further penalty to the misplaced, aggressive play.

[Doug Siebert]

Narrow greens are also great for straightaway driveable par 4s because if you drive it around pin high you aren't often (well I'm not often) going to hit it straight enough to put it on a really narrow green, so you have a shot to a very shallow green from one side or the other.  You don't need to have a penal hazard like OB, water or forest around the green to construct a good short par 4 out of it, which unfortunately is used as the easy way out to construct a gambling short 4 all too often.  I really like the short par 4s that look innocent and inviting and maybe they don't give you 6s and 7s, but seem to be extremely stingy about giving up 3s and often make you work a bit for your 4s.

I'm reminded of the 13th at Lahinch as a sterner version of what I'm talking about.  Those two bunkers front left make it probably not a percentage play to play for the green there on a calm day (I'm assuming without evidence such days do occur in SW Ireland once or twice a decade)  But even if you filled in those two bunkers it might not necessarily give one any better of an average score to go for the green.  Of course playing into such a strong wind I felt it was smarter to play driver and give the green a go because I didn't relish the idea of facing those two bunkers after a layup off the tee -- which is really why they are there!  Its better to play your second from a tough greenside bunker than your third

[James Bennett]

Mark Ferguson

see the Nissan Pic's thread for an image of the 10th at Riviera.  It seems that the first fairway bunker has been extended to the right from my 'video experience'.  Has it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Surely there are many great holes with narrow greens, but generally I think it limits the imagination of the architect and minimizes the use of strategic angles in design and the variety of pin placements that enables the course to be set-up in a number of different ways.

Could you explain how the imagination is limited and the strategic angles minimized ?

Take for example, a green angled at 30 to 45 degrees.
How are angles minimized, on a tee shot, approach and recovery.  Aren't they inherent in the design of the green ?

The narrowing of a green is directly proportionate to the number of hole locations, that's where the length of the green is a factor, with hole locations primarily along the spine of the green to the limited perimeter.

The creation of the narrow angled green has a specific purpose ........ to test the precision of the approach shot.  Or, to reduce the margins of error.
To test the golfer's ability to get both the distance and the direction just right.

If architecture is to provide a thorough examination of a golfers game, the narrow, angled green performs that task quite well.[/color]

The course I think of first is the Old Course at St. Andrews, and how much fun it is to play.

Perhaps because the margins of error on those greens are so large.

I've often seen golfers three putt, and occassionally five putt, but, there's generally a feeling of comfort when a golfer has reached the green.

That comfort zone disappears when a narrow, angled green comes into view.  I've seen golfers leave their bunker shots in the bunker, or blast them over the green into the back bunker, and this is the dilema that is presented to the golfer when faced with a narrow angled green, the need for absolute precision.[/color]

Spyglass No. 7(?) is about as narrow as it gets, although it has banks on both sides.

[Mike Hendren]

The 6th at my "real" home course - Rolling Hills CC in Ripley, TN is a flat 360 yards hole with an hour-glass shaped green that is pushed up a couple of feet.  The middle is no more than ten paces deep with a slight false front and false back.  The left side is backed by a three foot high kick-plate in the rear and the right side by a one foot high kick-plate.  Fairways that are mowed weekly whether they need it or not, making it difficult to spin the ball with the half-wedge.  In purely coincidental homage to Geo. C. Thomas, Jr. fairway is maintained behind the green.

The 7th is a 290 yards reverse Redan, but that's another story.

Mike

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark:

I think the narrow green is perhaps one of the coolest and most interesting, and most sophisticated architectural offering of all. Some narrow greens (list below) are some of the best, most respected and famous holes in the world of golf but I think the real key to the success of the narrow green on a golf course is to never do too many of them!!!

Great examples:

The Best in the world, in my opinion, is;

1. Riviera's #10

Followed by (those that I know);

2. PVGC's #8
3. PVGC's #12
4. Pacific Dunes's #6

The real beauty of these greens and holes, in my opinion, is the architects of them had the talent and the sense to construct fairway arrangements (in combination with these narrow greens) that're quite wide and consequently give the golfer distinct choices off the tee to make an approach to these greens to a target that's EITHER narrow and long OR wide and shallow!!

Tom-

  I have seen narrow greens from many of the "Golden Age" architects--in your research with Wayne, had Flynn ever designed or built narrow greens?  
With the exception of #12 at Rolling Green, are there any examples?  

  Come to think of it, if you, Wayne, or Craig recall that hole at Washington Golf & CC that we toured this past August, do you recall the one hole after you cross over to the other side of the property--with that dramatic fall-off in the fairway, maybe 20 to 30 feet in height?  It was over the bridge to the left of the halfway house.  

  I seem to remember that was a relatively narrow green, and angled to the line of play.  I also recall it featured several tiers, however this could be Flynn and it could have been Ross.  Craig would probably know best.  

The old #18 at Congressional Gold also featured an extremely narrow, 3 tiered green--we didn't see this green.  It was built by either the Fazios, Hills  , or Ault/Clark, and it's not in play anymore.  It serves as a practice green.  

Burning Tree also featured some narrow greens--I believe #7 in particular was narrower--and I'm not sure if this was Alison's work or Art Hills  

Emmet built a few narrow greens at Bethpage Green-#8, #10, and #16 in particular.  This may have been Tillinghast, though--Phil Young would probably know the correct answer here, as Tillie did a redesign of the Green in the late 1920's or early 1930's.  

[Mark Brown]

Patrick,

You have some good points as far as testing the accuracy of the approach shot with angled greens which are enjoyable challenges on a limited basis, but I don't think the original post talked about angled greens. Nicklaus used to do angled greens a lot during his penal era of the 80s, ie. Desert Highlands.

I did not say that I didn't like narrow greens - there's a time for everything, but wider greens give the architect more freedom with dramatic contours and little greens with greens.

[cary lichtenstein]

David Madison:

I have not played Mayacoo Lakes, so I can't comment on that, but I hear that is one tough golf course, with very narrow landing areas.

Sounds like green complexes are similar, however I am now informed that Jim Lipe did not do the Ritz for Nicklaus, and I haven't found out who did.

Anyone know?

[Mark Brown]

Patrick,

Per your comment angled greens require perfect precision in length and direction. Thus they are much more difficult to play for the average golfer and shouldn't be used too much. They also offer only one good angle to the pin and if you miss to the side or over the green you're usually screwed. I prefer the possibility of recovery with an excellent shot, as does Crenshaw.

A wider green can also offer a reasonable shot from more than one angle - say from the far left or the far right of the fairway - perhaps one angle leaves a blind or partially blind approach that is more difficult but possible with a very good shot and some imagination -- and that's what strategy, and golf is all about.

It's discussions like these that keep me coming back. No one's totally right or wrong and we all learn from each other's observations.

All the Best Patrick.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()