[Tommy_Naccarato]

I hope a lot of the Wilson stuff (ie. those letters to and from Piper and Oakley) are covered in your Flynn book.

........Which is set for a 2023 release.

[TEPaul]

"TE
You don't have to go over the chain of events, I'm aware of how it developed."

Tom:

Are you really? You should could fool me. Why is it then you keep saying the same things in contradiction to those chain of events?

"I actually believe Shelley gave more credit to Colt than Finegan did. To his credit, WS also understood the map hanging at PV was a Crump and Colt creation."

It's Shelly. I don't think Shelly gave more credit to Colt, and if Shelly did understand the topo map hanging in the front room at PV was a Colt's and Crump's creation (any more than Finegan did) he certainly didn't mention that in his book. Matter of fact, I can't see he mentioned that topo map at all. What Shelly mentioned in that regard was the hole by hole design booklet of Colt's. Shelly who obviously analyzed that booklet carefully for his history book had this to say about Colt's hole by hole booklet'

"The remarkable difference between these designs (Colt hole by hole booklet) and the final layout is surprising."

On the same subject of Colt's hole by hole booklet and the way the course was constructed Finegan had this to say:

"There are some similarities between Colt's work and the final layout of the holes, but there are many differences."

Since neither one of them seem to have understood the distinction between Colt and Crump's hand on the topo routing map in the front room, or more likely that there even was anything from Colt on that topo routing map, the hole by hole booklet is the thing they both obviously focused on most. Both of them----two men who clearly knew that course like the back of their hands came to the conclusion that the hole by hole Colt booklet was either 'remarkably different as to be suprising' or to have 'more differences than similarities.'

Since neither Paul, you or I have ever seen that booklet it probably wouldn't be that prudent to discount what Shelly and Finegan had to say about it.

[T_MacWood]

"It's Shelly."
I'm sorry. Spelling has never been my strong suit. I actually I had it spelled 'Shelly' originally until I reread your post and you had it spelled 'Shelley'.

This is what I read in the old PV history:

"The original plan or drawing of the course laid out by Colt and Crump is now in the clubhouse. It shows the foresight of the founders."

[TEPaul]

"This is what I read in the old PV history:"

'The original plan or drawing of the course laid out by Colt and Crump is now in the clubhouse. It shows the foresight of the founders.'

Tom:

Could you point out where it says that in Warner Shelly's PVGC history book?

PS

Spelling has never been my strong suit either but at least I can look at this thing and copy it.

[T_MacWood]

It is page 11 of the old PV history.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tommy N.,

What year did Flynn die, 1945?

If so, we've already been waiting 60 years for a book on him. I guess I can wait another 18  

[TEPaul]

"It is page 11 of the old PV history."

Tom MacW:

There's nothing like that on page 11 of Warner Shelly's PVGC history book. What book are you speaking of---John Arthur Brown's little book?

[T_MacWood]

TE
My mistake. John Arthur Brown gave more credit to Colt than either Shelly or Finegan. And to his credit he recognized who was responsible for the plan.

If I'm not mistaken Brown began his service at PV in the late twenties....he may have even put in more time than you.  

Other than Crump, has there been a more influential force at PV?

[TEPaul]

"Other than Crump, has there been a more influential force at PV?"

No, not even close. Brown became the president of PVGC at age 40 in 1925 (from Howard Perrin) and remained as same until he died in 1977 at 92. He was one of golf's most famous "benevolent autocrats" (one could decide for themselves the meaning of "benevolent" in his case) and it was nearly impossible for a first time visitor to PVGC in recent years to not hear a couple of interesting and generally funny J.A. Brown "stories". His superintendent, Eb Steineger was along with him almost the entire way and Brown had a famous "1st lieutenant" who executed many of his demands and messages to players and members by the name of "Big Ed" Bryant.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Now that we seem to be getting along with each other a bit better in the last few days, don't you think it's about time you answered our constant question to you about why you think it's so significant to the truth of who was responsible for the architecture of PVGC and the part Colt played in it that Crump may've shot himself rather than died of poison from a tooth abscess?

Nobody is asking you to expose any "source" or anything of that nature, merely a detailed OPINION of why you think a Crump "suicide" would have any significance to what the club thought of him and what he did there (vs what Colt did there).

[T_MacWood]

Human nature.

[wsmorrison]

"Human nature"

Was it worth all of the effort by Tom Paul for that response? At least things are less contentious.  But with all the information he shared and the time and energy put into the effort to explain the relationship between PVGC and Crump and with Colt and the other architects, I would've expected a bit more from Tom MacWood.  I think it is because he is defending a defenseless position and I wish he'd run up the white flag.  It is time to stop wasting his and our time.  As Tommy Naccarato pointed out that there's a lot more important things to be doing than trying to convince you of anything.

[TEPaul]

Does the substance of post #110 following post #109 tell you why I've said a number of times that Tom MacWood's interpretations on here on various matters, research and otherwise, relating to golf architecture--eg his assumptions and conclusions---are either completely inscrutable or completely worthless?    I love to see some of the raw research material he posts on here, and I encourage him to continue to produce it---but intelligently interpret it?  No way!

Wayne:

Maybe he still thinks I'm asking him to reveal some new "source" that proves Crump committed suicide, but I'm certainly not doing that. Are Tom MacWood's "ducks" his mysterious "sources". If so I guess they either aren't in a row or they have their heads sticking straight down in some pond and their asses in the air at the moment. I'm not asking him anything about "sources" that he feels might be injured by us on here which only serves to make Tom ill. I'm only asking him to explain why he thinks a Crump suicide (vs dying of poison from a tooth abscess) would have any significance to the way the Club looked at Crump vs Colt and their parts in that vein during PVGC creation.

As Adlai said to the stonewalling Russian ambassador in the Untied Nation;

"I'm prepared to wait for his answer until hell freezes over!"  

On all that voluminous information on the details of the routing of PVGC that you mentioned I just supplied for him, I fully expect in a day or so he'll just take that information and tell me he already knew all that!    

[wsmorrison]

Interesting that Tom knows human nature so well that he doesn't have to come within 500 miles of Pine Valley to know exactly how they think (90 years ago no less) and analyzes for us the club psyche and how it relates to the perpetuation of myths.  Sounds like a good thesis to write in the ivory tower.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I'm still waiting!

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