[Lou_Duran]

I am at an age where I am losing distance, and my desire for practice and excercise is waning.  As a result, my scores are going up and the game is becoming less enjoyable.

I am by no means unique in this situation as a number of my over 50 (age) friends now want to play from the second set of tees at most courses.  Only this past year have I quit resisting and what I am finding out is that I am shooting the same poor scores from the shorter tees as I did from the back.

One of my better friends, a four handicap, used to hit it about the same distance as I did.  When he turned 50 a couple of years ago he began to moan about having to play the back tees so we let him move up.  What is funny now (not to him), is that he has gotten so short that I can typically keep up with him starting 20 or more yards behind him.

My fear is that most golfers have a certain comfort zone and that the game adjusts to this level.  I have the feeling that if I continued to play the back tees, that my game would deteriorate less fast than if acquiesce and move up.

I have one other bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.  While at Ohio State, my relevant range on the difficult Scarlet Course was 77 - 83.  When I went home for the summer, I would shoot around par for a couple of weeks at the much easier Hillcrest GC (Findlay, OH).  However, even though I practiced regularly, my game adapted to the new surroundings and pretty soon I would be shooting in the upper 70s/low 80s.

Any thoughts?  Do golfers who play more difficult, longer courses tend to be better golfers?  
 

[Sean_A]

Lou

It may depend on the level of golf you are talking about.  I think for low cappers, tougher courses do not make people play better.  Much of what makes courses more difficult is length of the course compared to the SS rating.  For most low cappers, distance is not an issue.  On a shorter course where the SS is below par by a few shots, players need to make more putts and chip better to make up the two shots given to par.  

For middle cappers, maybe at 7ish to 14ish, a more difficult course might help them to be better golfers.  Many of these players could play better (they often are quite skilled, but lack course management or suffer some lapse in concentration) if they were more challenged on a regular basis.

I think for high cappers, a tougher course does them no favours.  These players usually struggle with all facets of the game.  Playing long, difficult courses can often be self defeating.  

I have played a few very difficult courses (Carnoustie, Hoylake, Oakland Hills) and quickly realised I was out of my depth.  When courses measure in at over 6800 yards with tough bunkering etc., I start to lose interest.  The game loses some enjoyment because of the struggle.  I reckon if I am not having fun it is not likely I will play well.  Though playing difficult courses is good to do once in a while, just for piece of humble pie.

Ciao

Sean

[Doug Siebert]

I play moderate to difficult courses most of the time, and almost always from the tips.  I'd been thinking about that perhaps not always being the best thing and that I should have some variety once in a while to get some experience with "going low" to change my comfort zone.  So I had resolved that this year a few times when I'm playing with my dad and his friends, instead of playing from the tips on my home course (74.1/134/7050) I'd play with them on the whites (66/126/5800 or so)  I'd have to do it when things aren't too packed since while all par 4s are unreachable from the tips, several are in range from the whites.

Truthfully, I doubt I can shoot the 8 or 9 shots better that I should based on CR and slope, but on a good day a score in the 60s is possible and just starting out on the first tee with the goal of breaking 70 instead of breaking 80 would provide a mental gear shift on scoring that might be beneficial to my mindset.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Lou,

Sean put it quite right.  I agree with him.

My home course is quite tight with woods or water on both sides of the fairway.  I have played with some visitors and noticed that with their game they can never play a good score with their handicap on our course.  Their home courses have been wide and open where you get accustomed to driving more wild.

On more difficult courses you have to be more humble and start using your head.  The slope system does not count this psychological factor.

Jari

[Bob_Huntley]

Lou,

Gosh, I'd give anything to be 50 again.

I played nine holes with a 13 year old late Friday afternoon from the middle tees at Quail Lodge. She was not a six foot something like Michelle Wie, but about 4ft 10in and weighs 84lbs. I think I outdrove her but twice. Your problems with loss of length can be as nothing compared to that.

Bob

[James Bennett]

A lot depends on the architecture style.  I recall playing Hope Island, and found the course easier from the back tees than the middle tees.  Because the bunkers were at a particular length, I could play my driver straight at them from the back tees, get a good line in to the green and get some flow into my game.  From the middle tees, I had to decide what line and what club to play on every teeshot.  

I havn't played St Andrews, but I assume that part of the challenge is the constant decision-making on club and line because of the random bunkering placement style.

As far as club golf goes, I find playing the same length of hole (ie from the same tees) improves ones play on that course.  However, to improve ones general play, mix up the tees and confront the different shots that are presented to you.  Perhaps 9 from one tee, and 9 from another, or perhaps odds and evens.  Your club may actaully provide a single set of tees that rotates through a reasonable proportion of the tee.  This can mean a variation of 20 metres to critical hazards from the tee at times between games.  Now there is something to keep your home course interesting.

[Alfie]

Lou,

With COMPLETE respect to your post ;

Stop shooting SCORES ; just go out and enjoy playing golf !

(Just a well intended suggestion.)

best regards,

Alfie.

[Steve Lang]

 

Lou,

The older I get, the longer I used to be..  and the more cliches come true..

Hillcrest certainly posed different challenges than Scarlet, like truck horns along I-75, or spraining your wrists on the hard clay fairways and playing along the tree lines.. purer golf coming in than leaving that course!  Is old Ed still there?

My post 50 length issue.. I chalked it up to having a bowling ball belly and a short backswing, but have found after tinkering with clubs and swing stuff,.. that length is a matter of flexibility and just letting go.. and playing with teenagers and college types easily reinforces that!  I've recently brought back some length by stretching and a grip change..

As a wise marshall at the WCC once told me when I had started there.. to move up to the tees you think you can play par from and after you accomplish that, feeling the thrill and tension of it all, then move back and work to get those feelings again..

I have empathy, and only recommend you go back to the tips when you think you have it all together..

[JESII]

When Jerry Kelly was a young pro and trying to figure out how to make a living playing golf, the pro at Jupiter Island (Bill Davis?) told him the number one thing for him was to learn how to make 9 birdies in a round. This should be foreign to most of us (except Jamie Slonis).

He told him to play every round he played from the very front set of tees until he was comfortable making 9 birdies. Once that happened he was to move back one set at a time with the same goal. Eventually he became comfortable making 9 birdies from the tips and now he is making a pretty good living on tour.

I guess the point is building confidence and developing an effective mindset are more important to good golf at any level than distance alone. Complacancey seemingly would be to blame for the guy that moves up a set of tees and before long is playing down to level he played from the original set.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

This has nothing to do with our round at Indian Creek Saturday, does it?  

Just cause I had to  hit driver on a 230 yard par 3, I feel the same.

Of course, my swing if off (perhaps permantly, or on loan to Andrew) and I was recovering from food poisoning.  Yeah, thats the ticket......

Also, we can use that George Constanza line, as it was so cold - "There was shrinkage!"  Slightly different kind, I know, but I think the principal holds......

[TEPaul]

BobH:

You're getting regularly out-driven by a 13 year old 4' 10" girl?? My, My, Old Sport, things are coming to a rather desperate pass, aren't they?

But I'm with you---even when I played pretty decent tournament golf I was pathetically short compared to those I had to compete against but now I'm just pathetically short period!!

If some 13 year old 4' 10" little budding super-star girl tries to play with me from the same tees I'll just growl at her to go away and leave older and very wise men like me alone!

What you and I need to do now, though, is begin to perfect that golf mode for older gentleman that Chi-Chi used to talk about which was----"The older you get the better you used to be!"

[Jeff_Brauer]

Off topic, I know, but its interesting to keep track of my declining post ratio to TEPaul

Currently 1480 (including this one) to
16,.050.  Thats only 9.2% of his posts.

I think there was a time when it was closer to equal.

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff B,

Nah, my post was not prompted by our play at the Creek course.  I just had a continuation from the last time I played a couple of weeks ago, where I swung back with my arms only (a false backswing) and then rushed it coming through over the top.  The left-to-left shot has always been my nemesis.  BTW, I thought that the course was a vast improvement over what was already a very good layout.  Even the 260 yard par three into or quartering the prevailing wind with the greens-gone-wild thing going on was very interesting (just mention to the guys not to put the cup on a 10* slope).  And your driver there was much more efffective than my 3 metal out to left field.

Steve L,

You know Hillcrest?  I haven't been back since the late 70s, but Ed Kolartcyk (sp) was still there then.  Hillcrest is a model of sorts for owner-operator facilities.  It improved greatly each year and Ed was an excellent manager (though a bit of a hard ass; he tried to emulate Ben Hogan).

BTW, I don't have a false impression of my very modest accomplishments in the game.  Distance is not my main problem, though the bowling ball thing is something that I can identify with.  Perhaps if some of Gary Player would rub off on me, I could begin to see some light at the end of tunnel.  The complacency that JES II alludes to could very well be.

Alfie,

Thanks for the sound advice.  I do take solace from the occasional good shot, but more often now, the recoveries are providing me much of my enjoyment.

Bob H,

It is amazing how high we value those things which we cannot have.  If I am sounding whinny about losing distance, I apologize.  There are not many courses where I can't get home in regulation from the back tees on 95% of the holes with well struck drives.  My fear is that if I move up to the 6,500 - 6,800 yard markers, that my game will acclimate to that level, and next thing I know, I will be considering playing a 6,000 yard course.

The bottom line is: should I say to hell with trying to score, play the back tees but continue to challenge myself (albeit, trying to break 80 instead of 75)?  Or, do I move up without changing the scoring objective and hope that my theory of a comfort zone is as unsound as certain aspects of my swing?  A third option, I suppose, is to take the shivas approach and not give a damn (though I believe that he is just kidding himself).  Unfortunately, I don't think that this is in my makeup.  

BTW, one of my goals, should I live to be that old, is to shoot my age.  I saw that Gary Player played a good tournament in HI.  I wonder how many times he has shot or bettered his age.  In the hundreds?  How many times have you done it?

To all,

I would still like some thoughts on whether playing difficult courses is better for one's game.  Champions in Houston is reputed to have an abnormally high percentage of single-digit handicappers.  I wonder if that is the result of the course attracting already good players, or that the environment the club fosters and the shots that the course requires really account for the high level of play.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

As we discussed about our club, perhaps there is just social pressure at some clubs to reduce handicaps, whereas at others there is pressure to raise them.  They don't just sandbag in Houston when the large rains come you know!

I do think you learn to play better under difficult conditions, ie the inordinate number of good wind players from Texas, including Mr. Leonard yesterday.  I think the general competition level at certain locales, and Texas is one, at least at the junior level also fosters better players.

Other factors could be course familiarity, good caddies, liberal gimme tendencies, a tendency to solicit members similar to themselves, ie tradition of good players, etc.

[Alfie]

"I would still like some thoughts on whether playing difficult courses is better for one's game"

Lou,

IMO - NO ! If you can't swim well - stay out of the deep end ! That's why I've never played Carnoustie, Troon or Augusta ?

Alfie

[Steve Lang]

 

Harder courses make you a better player in my book, so play on from the tips Lou if that's what makes em harder.. issue is whether other tees can be difficult too!  

Don't use Champions as an example.. I don't think they want you there unless you're single digit stuff, so its a self selection thing there, not a homegrown effect of playing there..

[Jason McNamara]

Don't use Champions as an example.. I don't think they want you there unless you're single digit stuff, so its a self selection thing there, not a homegrown effect of playing there..

Not only is there self-selection, there's Jackie Burke selection.  :-)  Besides, I would think those handicaps travel well.  You need a straight (and long enough) tee ball, good mid/long irons, and really good lag putting to score well there.

Others here may know better than I, but I think a couple of the Houston Am usuals are Champions guys.

Jason

(We now return you to the original thread topic.)

[ForkaB]

Lou

As one who has a few more years and a bit less golfing competence than you, let me support your thesis.  I think that the older you get, the MORE important it is that you play the harder courses.

I find that I am not, yet....., getting shorter as I age.  I attribute this to a large degree to the fact that I play competitive golf regularly against very good players at venues which if not already hard, are prepared hard for the day and require both concentration and execution to mitigate humiliation.  As Dylan (of the Thomas ilk...) once said:

"Do not go gentle into that good night.  Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

I've seen too many very good golfers who have gone gently onto the easier courses as they get older and completely lost their game.  It ain't gonna happen to me.  Don't let it happen to you, Lou!

Rich

I would even support the reverse corollary--the YOUNGER you are, the more important it is that you play the easier courses.  My current home course is an "easy" one, but it has consistently produced some of the best young golfers in Fife.  Why?  Well, if you learn how to score when you are young, you just don't forget it, do you?  Of course, developing and having a great short game doesn't hurt, either...... .  All you young guns out there--Get thee to a Muni!

[Brent Hutto]

I think I may have said this in another thread but I've moved up to the Silver tees at my club which are only about 5,500 yards (although it play a hundred or so longer because of uphill approach shots). The plan was to do it during the cool weather but I'm having so much more fun I may keep playing from there regularly for quite a while.

I'm doing it because making pars and birdies is fun but there are a couple lessons I'm learning from the experience. One is how to handle a stretch of four or five holes with makable birdie putts. That happened a week ago and I missed them all, including a couple of six feet or less. I think after hitting driver down the middle of the fairway and a wedge to a few feet past the hole I felt some sort of entitlement to those birdies. When they kept slipping over the edge of the hole and staying out I was completely gobsmacked, it was like I should be able to take those putts for granted because I hit two good shots.

I certainly don't think I could make nine birdies in a row if I were playing from the hundred-yard marker on every hole. Amazing that hitting the ball close to the hole in regulation is actually a thing you have to learn to be comfortable with. You'd think it would be cake.

[Lou_Duran]

Rihc,

You are much too kind.  I would much rather have you as a partner than an opponent.  Now, if I can get out of my comfort zone and get serious about competing at whatever level I am capable of.  I tend to believe that one is either progressing or regressing.  To keep doing the same things which are not working is a sign of madness.  Unfortunately, it is so much easier.

shivas,

I am not sure that I understand your "phoney length" concept.  Is it relative length (to others who might be getting longer) that you're talking about?

A benefit of playing the same course over 20+ years is that you develop very good memory.  I know where I used to hit it with persimmon and balata, and even with titanium and space-age composites today, I am regularly shorter.  My best drives may be just as long, but they are much, much fewer than in the past.

I am resigned to my fate as a senior golfer.  The question that I am struggling with is do I acquiesce and move up at the risk of accelarating the decline over the long-run in favor of some short term gratification?  Or do I just bite the bullet, change my mind's eye to what good golf is, and work on those things you and Rich suggested?

From the few responses, it seems that those who look at golf as a diversion would have me move up, have fun, and don't worry about the score.  Unforturnately, given my make-up, that may not be possible.  Golf to me might be akin to the pursuit of the Holy Grail.  I know it is unattainable, but I am always grasping for anything that might lead in the right direction.  I know that it is pure lunacy.  Stupid game.

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