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Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2002, 09:40:04 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Our posts crossed in cyberspace.  You stated more clearly what I was trying to say about the use of the decoy and the psychological aspect of camouflage.  

Again, couldn't the use of both "styles" have a greater impact?  Except, of course, on guys like Rich Goodale who just think about hitting the little ball. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2002, 08:56:49 PM »
Back to the reason why some of these angular features are aesthetically pleasing. I think Eric said it perfectly, they create drama. Of course maybe its possible I've taken this theory beyond the pale, but that's the price you pay.

Some of the most recognizable natural phenomenon on earth are a result of a bold angular feature contrasting with a more common scene. The first that came to my mind was Yosemite, where the bold angular rock formation tower above the gentle valley. Others Skellig Michael in Ireland, the island of Capri, Machu Picchu, Devils Tower, Ayers Rock in Oz and Fuji in Japan. The Grand Canyon is an inverse example. Everyone a angular feature that contrasts with softer natural situation and all would be described as aesthetically dramatic. What is also interesting is that they nearly all of some kind of religious connection for the native inhabitants. Another example of this dramatic effect -- and a man-made one -- are the stone gardens of Japan. Where the artist has created dramatic effect by raking the flat sand in gentle curving lines and created visual contrasts with bold combinations of angular rock. They are tranquil retreats for contemplation.

In considering the many aesthetic effects at Cypress Point, one that has always impressed me was the angular dune that dominates the center of the property. MacKenzie utilized it as a backdrop on a number of holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2002, 05:20:42 AM »
Tom MacW:

You mentioned the extraordinarily large natural dune that dominates the center of Cypress. You also mentioned a number of unusual natural formations around the earth that dominate certain settings, particularly one in Yosemite.

First of all, I certainly don't see that dune at Cypress as angular, unless of course we're prepared to call almost every other lineament in nature "angular". But regardless of what we call the contours and lines of that dune it's undeniable to anyone that it's a part of the natural site before the golf course was built!

But regardless of what the exact definitions of the actual lines of certain features used in golf architecture are or look like--whether natural or man-made ones--probably the most fundamental aspect of either is whether the golfer perceives them as natural or man-made. Certainly that's Max Behr's fundamental point!

Presumably whether or not the actual lines of whatever is naturally occuring at Yosemite, albeit very angular, were used somewhere else other than Yosemite, any golfer might perceive it as made by man nevertheless, don't you think?

In this context Max Behr did have some very interesting sentiments that seem applicable:

"What then is art in golf architecture?"

"....Experience has taught us that courses constructed with no higher end than merely to create a playground around which one may strike the ball, present the golfer with little more than a landscape brutalized with the ideas of some other golfer."

"It follows that when the canvas of Nature over which the club-stroke must pass is filled with holes artifically designed to impede the golfer's progress, these obvious man-made contraptions cause a violation of that sense of liberty he has every right to expect. This accounts for the checkered history of every artifical appearing golf course."

"Indeed the veriest tyro is unconsciously aware that golf is a contest with Nature. Thus where he meets her unadorned, unblemished by the hand of man, he meets her without criticism."

"The medium of the artist is paint, and he becomes its master; but the medium of the golf architect is the surface of the earth over which the forces of Nature alone are master."

"Therefore, in the prosecution of his designs, if the architect correctly uses the forces of nature to express them and thus succeeds in hiding his hand, then, only, has he created the illusion that can still all criticism."

It appears from all of this (if one subscribes to Max Behr's ideas) that the key concept here is to HIDE THE HAND OF THE ARCHITECT no matter what it is he creates on the site and no matter what the definitions of the angles are--natural or man-made looking!

If an architect perfectly recreated the naturally occuring angular feature of Yosemite in the wrong place and on the wrong site a golfer might very well perceive it as man-made, don't you think?

It appears that an architect like Tom Fazio is telling us that he's very good at recreating scenes that appear to be natural, somewhere perhaps, but not necessarily natural to the site he's building his golf course on (Shadow Creek might be an example).

Is that good enough to fulfill Behr's percept that the architect must hide his hand on the landscape over which the golfer is playing?

It wouldn't seem so to me, but how can I deny that many golfers appreciate Shadow Creek as some kind of illusion although clearly not one that's site-specifically natural looking!

Fazio (in his book) even goes farther and claims that many naturally occuring formations must be altered or wiped away in golf architecture since the golfer will resist them, anyway (apparently in direct contradiction to Behr)! Presumably Fazio is thinking of things like blind shots and such!

But certainly architects like MacKenzie and Behr did not advocate using some natural features for golfers to play over if that appeared unusually difficult--just to possibly use them as part of the site otherwise (like the large dune at Cypress)!

Perhaps this is the very thing that interested Ken Bakst in Coore's routing of the difficult naturally occuring dunes areas of Friar's Head! Coore needed to route holes through those natural dunes, certainly, but he did not want to alter them or destroy them to a point where they would cease to be what they were to that site.

Fazio on the other hand apparently advocated going farther and simply altering them in his own routing to a far greater extent and basically not using them as part of the look and feel of the site--at least not anywhere near the extent that Coore did!

It's no secret whatsoever to Bakst either that Coore came within a wisker of saying he could not get the holes he needed to into those dunes without going beyond where he wanted to in altering them! Presumably this may also have meant that the site would not have worked well enough otherwise in Coore's mind!

But the payoff, of course, is the golf course is done now, and I saw it both before anything was done and also after construction and I can't tell at all anymore what Coore did and didn't do! That's as complete a job of an architect hiding his hand as I've ever seen!

But if an architect does not hide his hand, even at all, do golfers really care? Probably many don't! But certainly some do very much.

If that's true, Behr was apparently right only to an extent! And Fazio too!

It only proves to me again, what a great big thing golf and it's architecture is, and that there's room in it for everyone!

The real deal probably is in the differences of it all, afterall!

That probably shouldn't prevent people like us, though, Tom, from saying we think that some golfers and architects really have no taste!

And it shouldn't prevent them from saying the same about us!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2002, 05:46:13 AM »
TE
You said "if an architect perfectly recreated the naturally occuring angular feature of Yosemite in the wrong place and on the wrong site a golfer might very well perceive it as man-made, don't you think?" Yes I do, just as many of Raynor, Langford, Alisons, etc features are obviously man made, and just as the Japanese rock gardens are abviously man-made. Yes, they are man-made, but why are they so appealing, the same question you say Coore asks? The Raynor paradox.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2002, 07:17:54 AM »
Tom McW:

Once again, not just Raynor's features but particularly his golf courses are appealing to me in the context of the time in which his courses were made! That's why I'm fascinated by the evolution of golf architecture and its chronology!

The fact is that NGLA was likely the first American golf course that had 18 really good golf holes that played extremely well despite what they may have looked like when viewed in the context of where architecture had gotten to at that time! Or probably more properly, where architecture had NOT gotten too at that time!

That's the way I view it! You may view it in some other way perhaps.

It seems also that most everyone on here, maybe even you too, ask that others express what is best of all when they discuss architecture! That's not what I like to do and that's not what I'm going to do.

I will express what I like about architecture in any era, particularly when viewed as what it all meant in that era as well as how we view it now.

But, I'm sorry to have to say, I guess, that although I view what came both before and after the style of NGLA and Raynor with great interest, I also certainly view the style of MacKenzie's Cypress Point, as simply an advancement in the art of architecture! It was that, in my opinion, because they went far beyond the use of man-made looking "angular" architecture and created man-made architecture that looked so much more like Nature!! What they did later, in the 1920s particularly, emulated Nature in their golf features so much better!

It's not to say I don't like a model T Ford either or that I'm not fascinated by it! But I look at it in the context of its time! And I also look at how things evolved beyond it!

If it were not so, golf architecture as an art would be static somehow! I don't see it that way! It's always progressing--sometimes in what I think are poor directions and sometimes in what I think are good directions!

Despite how good some of us might think some of the Golden Age architecture was it should certainly not be lost on us that those architects who built those wonderful courses dreamt sincerely of going beyond even those designs in adventurous and interesting ways!

And one of the most interesting ways of all to me (which they dreamt of) was getting as close to the look of Nature as imaginable!

Things are not at an end, you know? They can still get even better--there still should be plenty of future in the art in ways that we think of as positive ahead of us!

At least that's the way many of those "Golden Agers" thought and to me that makes the entire evolution of the art the fascination to me!

I do think in the context of emulating Nature really well with man-made features, Cypress may have been the acme even to date, but that doesn't mean that things can't progress farther in that way in the future!

The fact that "Modern Age" architecture did not do that is only more of the fascination but should not be viewed to construe in any way that things can't change and get better!

There is no "Raynor paradox" to me! It was just a fascinating architectural expression for it's era--for its time!

And furthermore, I certainly believe that all of this architecture when viewed as what's interesting of it and about it in the evolution of architecture should be left alone as much as possible, otherwise we will lose the evidence of it and consequently the understanding of the evolution of it! And to have that not happen is very important, in my opinion!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2002, 07:43:32 AM »
Tom, TEPaul,
I've played a few Raynors and I'm very familiar with one in particular, the Hotchkiss course. We have some wild yet playable topography that was mostly untouched during construction but the hand of man is very recognizable at the greensites.
My simplistic take on the paradox:
We function in a mostly man made world. It is a modern world that is less in touch with nature than the world was at the time The Old Course was unfurling itself. Since that time much more of the natural world has succumbed to our unyielding desire to tame it for our use but much that is wild and natural remains, which we admire. Therefore it seems that we would appreciate the "natural" elements of courses but we can just as easily appreciate the "man made" ones. When the two elements are put together well, as in a Raynor course, we have the best of both worlds. This is not to say that one is better than the other, just that they go well together and link us to each epoch.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2002, 09:22:50 AM »
JimK:

That's an interesting post of yours! It's another example, in my mind, of evidences of what I've mentioned on here before as Americans' latent feelings of "Manifest Destiny".

As this country grew and went into the American wilderness to explore, settle and prosper in it, a conflicting feeling grew in the national pysche about the wilderness (unblemished nature).

On the one hand, it was looked at as something that must be "conquered" to survive in but on the other hand not many could help but notice and acknowledge the awesome majesty of it and its unblemished (by man) beauty!

This created an inherent conflict in the national pysche as they not only looked at the wilderness but perhaps much more, and later, the rest of the world.

It's no secret how most Americans feel about themselves and their country as something which is at the same time both fair, forgiving and just as well as all powerful and all potential, even in it's ability to destroy and conquer (all for what's considered the right reasons, of course--ie, "Manifest Destiny").

This original inherent conflict of feeling about the wilderness (nature) was rationalized into what came to be known as "Manifest Destiny", basically the American God given right to conquer nature to survive and prosper! But still that troubling feeling of destroying the wilderness, nature and beauty was unavoidable.

This likely explains many Americans' ability to feel omnipotent about the way they look at many things and at the same time guilt too!

If you ever get the chance, do your best to see an American art exhibit called "American Sublime" 1820-1880! It includes among other things the Hudson Valley School of art!

It is probably the ideal artistic evidence and depiction of this idea of American "Manifest Destiny" and the inherent conflict in the American pysche between the potential destructivenss of the "man-made" and majesty of natural beauty!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2002, 10:22:43 AM »
TE
Maybe I don't understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you have difficulty acknowledging that Raynor's architectural look is really artistically appealing (looking at it from a historical context), especially when you compare it to MacKenzie's very different style, exemplified by Cypress Point. And because you view MacKenzie's very beautiful and naturally sympathetic style as a very highly evolved form of the art, and Raynor's as a less evolved and artistically inferior form, there can be no paradox - which makes sense to me. If I wasn't aesthetically moved by the angular look of Raynor or Langford or Alison there would be no paradox for me either, but since I find both MacKenzie's look and Raynor's look both aesthetically pleasing, I viewed it as a paradox.

I'm not sure what the evolution of golf architecture has to do with why something is aesthetically pleasing. I can cite art throughout history that is aesthretically pleasing to me and art that is frankly unappealing. I don't believe the aesthetic appeal of the military earth works at Valley Forge is effected by their construction in 1700 AD or 700 BC.  Or the artistic appeal of a Japanese rock garden changes if it were created in 1600 or 2002. The person viewing the art is either moved or not moved, the date has no effect.  I also believe that the study of art and the study of aesthetics and the psychology of aesthetics can help us understand why certain objects are more appealing than others or why certain things are appealing at all.

What do you make of MacKenzie's last artistic style as exemplified by the Jockey Club and Bayside?

Jim
I agree with your analysis. I'm not sure there was more talented router than Raynor, his ability to recognize the interesting natural features of a site and utilize them in his layouts was uncanny. In fact it was that ability and the juxtaposition he set up with his angular features is why I believe his courses are so aesthetically pleasing. The same reason (contrasting features) I believe is why the Japanese rock garden is so pleasing and the Yosemite.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2002, 11:39:18 AM »
Tom MacW:

If you had any previous confusion about what I was trying to say I think you summed up what I've been saying quite well in your first paragraph.

The evolution of architecture as a fascination of mine has not that much to do with whether or not I think anything in the chronology of that evolution is more aesthetically pleasing than anything else.

I'm interested in the evolution of architecture simply as a way of understanding how architectural thinking and architectural creations might have progressed from one thing to another--one style or function to another over time. Prioritizing it all aesthetically seems of almost exclusive interest to you but not necessarily to me!

Something of a particular era certainly might be aesthetically pleasing to me, mind you, but I'm not saying that something is more aesthetically pleasing to me simply because it came later (or came earlier)--if that's what you thought I was saying!

I have said more than a number of times, though, that I believe Cypress Point is the best example in the history of golf architecture of an architect "tying in" man-made features to be virtually indistinguishable from natural ones!

And I've said more than a number of times that I consider that golf course (and possibly that era) as the acme in the art of architecture, IN THAT REGARD! And that course certainly is aesthetically pleasing to me. And I believe much of the reason for what MacKenzie came to do there came as a result of his thinking in other applications, like that of military trenching with the use of natural lines and not straight lines and how he applied that to golf architecture at that time!

If by saying that you want to conclude that I like Cypress Point better as a golf course, then be my guest! But that doesn't mean to me that I think less of NGLA or Raynor's style either--at least it doesn't to me! But I do look at these things in the context of an evolution or architectural chronology!

You certainly needn't consider the evolution or chronology of architecture either, as I do. Whatever era or look you find aesthetically pleasing is just fine, and is not really worth much more than a question from me.

But again, looking at the angular lines of much of Raynor's work in the context of an evolution basically makes me see it for what it is (and sans any kind of aesthetically pleasing prioritizing). But I truly am fascinated by it and I do find it quite pleasing to look at either aesthetically or as a very interesting point in the evolution of architecture for various reasons.

You're the one who's using the term "paradox" here, not me. It would seem if you're describing it that way, you must be the one who can't really understand exactly why it's aesthetically pleasing to you! Hence the paradox!

I don't see it that way. And, you should also know that things don't become aesthetically more pleasing to me simply because they evolve and progress in other directions over time.

I don't find "modern age" architecture as a general style (or era) anywhere near as pleasing to look at as some from the era of the late 1920s or even Raynor's style, for that matter!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2002, 04:31:01 PM »
TE
I am also interested in the evolution of golf architecture (and I would like to think I have a decent understanding of it, although its a never ending always evolving process). I'm not sure how you track the evolution without considering aesthetics or the look and style of individual architects, after all architecture is a visual art. Aesthetic style is one of the primary methods in differentiating one architect from another (also in following the evolution of an architect's career). I don't believe I have prioritized architecture aesthetically on this thread, unless you consider the fact that I find both MacKenzie and Raynor's style pleasing prioritizing. I do believe aesthetics and an appreciation for nature are important factors in separating the average from the good from the great - so I guess I do prioritize. I'm not sure how you track the history of architecture without identifying the very best work.

My interest in architecture includes why an architect chooses to create features in a certain way - which includes aesthetics. I find it interesting that two apparently opposing styles can both be aesthetically pleasing - you do not - no harm. I also find it interesting that at largely man-made Lido, Macdonald and Raynor created naturalistic dunes along with their typical angular features. Apparently a conscious effort to create the visual contrast/dramatic effect found with their other designs.

Speaking of evolution, what do you make of MacKenzie's last artistic style as exemplified by the Jockey Club and Bayside?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2002, 03:26:38 AM »
Tom:

I don't know the Jockey Club or Bayside very well but I'll check out photos.

It's not that I don't think of architecture in the context of whether or not it's aesthetically pleasing but perhaps I don't to the extent you do--that's all.

As for the more angular style of MacDonald and Raynor as opposed to say MacKenzie's Cypress, I've already said a number of times I look at the earlier style (NGLA) not so much as an ATTEMPT by Raynor and MacDonald to create a particular STYLE using those types of lines vs them choosing to create Cypress's more natural lines at NGLA as something Raynor and MacDonald concsiously choose to do. I don't think they did that simply because they were not as aware how to create those later more natural lines that MacKenzie did at Cypress simply because golf architecture had not come to that point YET when NGLA was being built!

As for why Raynor CHOSE to stick with his more angular style later, I've already answered what that reason was--basically he stuck to a known style that was successful for him!!

You may look at it differently, and you may cite a number of English or European courses and their features as evidence of what MacKenzie did in the late 1920s but I'm not buying that at all Tom!

The reason I'm not is I don't think that golf architecture had gotten to that point (Cypress) earlier! They went with what they knew at that time (1910) and they went with it because in many ways they were copying ideas and concepts from Europe that were even earlier than that and in some cases by a lot! And what they found earlier and at the time of NGLA was a lot more angular in many ways than what was done in the late 1920s at Cypress. The reason it was done more and done better later is architecture had figured out a way to "tie" man-made features in with the look of natural features by using more dirt and more natural non-straight lines or conversely using more natural landforms for entire golf holes (and less dirt) as evidenced best by MacKenzie's hole #9 at Cypress!! And I think a lot of that thinking and style came from MacKenzie's ideas on military trenching to make it look more like nature!

All that involves an evolution and chronology to me although clearly you may not see it that way!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2002, 03:35:24 AM »
Tom P

If you still think that the 9th at Cypress is a paragon of "naturalness" you need to get out there and look at it up close and personal again and stop concentrating on the pictures of it in Geoff Shack's book.

Or maybe you are from the planet Remulac........ :o

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2002, 04:05:20 AM »
Sorry, Rich, but I've been there, seen it, played it, etc, etc! But in this context I am more interested in how MacKenzie found it and what he did there, and what the hole looked like when the courses opened for played in it's amazing completed form!

Any other recommendations would be welcome though!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2002, 05:57:34 AM »
TE
I think you will find that there were a number of architects creating naturally inspired features (non-straight line) well before 1910. But just as the case in North America each architect had his own unique style.  Colt differed from Fowler who differed from Park who differed from Simpson who differed from Abercromby who differed from MacKenzie and so on. Did anyone create anything approaching Cypress Point --  no -- but I don’t even think MacKenzie duplicated that effort.

 If you want to get an idea of what they were thinking back then, let me suggest Horace Hutchinson’s ‘Golf green-keeping’ (1906). Numerous authors with differing levels of architectural understanding and sophistication, but what is most striking about the book are the photographs, perhaps the most outstanding group of naturally inspired perfectly integrated hazards and features ever seen a golf architecture book -- before or since. The book no doubt acted as a visual roadmap for architects on both sides of the Atlantic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2002, 06:40:21 AM »
We know Mackenzie and Behr both espoused the principle of "lines of charm."  Is there anything written that would suggest the two discussed this idea "hiding man's hand" and the effect on the golfer.  When were those Behr quotes written?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2002, 03:14:59 PM »
Mikey

Sorry I did not respond to your post earlier. Your title is rather mis-leading. I thought you were raving about the merits of the Bob Cupp course at Palmetto Hall! ;)

I used to live in Valley Forge and made many a trip though the park on my way to the Pickering Factory Outlet in Phoenixville.  I know you will find this difficult to believe, but I often thought that Valley Forge Park would make a magnificent golf course! What a waste as a park.  It is a shame such a limited amount this spectacular piece of historic property is accessible to the public. I often thought a thirty six hole championship public access facility would be a much better use of the land. Valley Forge National GC could use the huts for a caddie shack and halfway house. What an ideal venue for the US Open! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2002, 05:16:12 PM »
Robby;

Did I read your post correctly that you would like to see a geometric, Cupp-like modern course created at Valley Forge Park?  ;)

Although, with Cupp seemingly on the downside of his career, perhaps you're thinking that Art Hills might be a better choice?

Mikey  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2002, 06:40:56 PM »
Do I hear brakes screeching? ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Mike_Cirba

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2002, 07:37:01 PM »
Eric;

That's just the sound of Rob and I screeching brakes to avert a mid-road collision in the VF Park, coming at this whole question from opposite directions, as usual.  ;)

Even I would never be so bold as to suggest anything more than that VF park would be nice land to dreamily envision a course laid out there.  On the other hand, I understand that Rob is actually hanging in the DC area these days strictly to be geographically positioned for lobbying our national legislators for a zoning variance and a 36-hole Brian Ault/Art Hills "links style" CCFAD on the site.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2002, 11:13:12 PM »
Mike

The link below proves that Painswick was built by the Celts on a pre-historic battlefield, where the enemies were wolves and wild boar.  The "Beacon" referred to is the site of the 7th tee, 9th green, 11th tee, 10th green, etc. etc.  It is a busy place now just as it must have been back in the good old days when assuring that your children were not eaten before (and as) breakfast was more important than the "value" of your 401(k) and before yardage markers on sprinklers........

This thread also made me look at the 1st at PGC in a new light, and now I see the "Anthill" which was the central element of the plot of Stanley Kubrick's truly great film on WWI, "Paths of Glory," which is, non-coincidentally, my way of describing "lines of charm".......................

http://www.richinsonline.com/histories/richins/painswick/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2002, 06:15:34 AM »
Mikey

You have blown my cover! :o I must now reveal my true profession. I lobby the Federal Government to convert wasted and underused National Resources (such as VF Park) for conversion to golf facilities. ;) The projects will be funded through the Federal Government under the auspicies of Historical Landmarks. I am attempting to obtain additional funds to be earmarked for the renovation and restoration of any course designed by an member of the Philadelphia School of Golf Course Design.

I am working on a projects in Manassas, VA and Gettysburg, PA. I have also received and RFP from groups seeking to develop courses on the sites of The Battle of Little Bighorn (not the site of the Tiger glow ball matches) and The Alamo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2002, 07:48:18 AM »
Hey Rob,

At the Alamo, I think a golf shop would work great in the basement!  ;D  

I think I've set a personal record for smiley faces on this thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #72 on: October 08, 2002, 07:41:41 PM »
Tom MacW:

I think it's been a good discussion on this thread between you and me, but it's quite apparent to me that we look at some of the same things differently! Nothing wrong with that at all--that's probably the way golf architecture should be.

And just to correct a point you mentioned about Bill Coore and what he said about NGLA. He never asked the question; "Why is NGLA so artistically appealing?" (Something you mentioned to support you're belief in what you call a "Raynor Paradox").

The only thing Coore ever said to me about NGLA was he found it hard to believe that MacDonald and Raynor had the guts to build a golf course like that! Very presumably that was a compliment!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #73 on: October 08, 2002, 08:27:40 PM »
Rich;

Thanks for providing the "Rich" history of Painswick by way of contrast to my VF example.  Certainly, those deep swales may have been excellent hiding places from being devoured by predators, and perhaps one can romantically imagine that building of man made ramparts and the utilization of other camouflaging techniques might have served a similarly useful purpose for survival.

That the land was later used for golf sort of illustrates my point, somewhat ironically.  ;)

Rob;

Your secret's safe with me.  I wish you the greatest success in dealing with the most multi-layered, sluggish, non-responsive bureaucracy of them all, the National Parks Service of the Interior Department.  

Of course, it's great to hear that we have a GCA "mole" working the inner circle power corridors of DC, and if you just let me suggest the architects once you gain the necessary approvals, I'm sure we can create a win/win situation for both the golfing public as well as the general taxpayer, "civilian" population.

Just let me know what legislators you have "in pocket", and I'll be sure to help in their electoral efforts....behind the scenes in my usual manner, of course.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:10 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Geometric Design and Battlefields
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2002, 09:11:24 AM »
Tom MacW:

I think I owe you some clarification and maybe some amendment to some of what I've said to you on this thread!

I think I believe the things I said on here to be true and historically accurate but either I'm wrong on a few things or you may have misunderstood me.

The reason for this post is because I had a great conversation about this thread and this general subject with Rodney Hine (I guess he read it) yesterday at Gulph Mills and we talked about this subject from two carts for a good amount of time and despite the fact it was starting to rain and he pointed out a few things to me!

Firstly, if I said or implied that it was Alister MacKenzie that came up with the idea of attempting to make man-made architectural features look natural, in the lines and stylizing used by him in the 1920s, I'm probably very wrong about that.

Clearly others, particularly some of the early Europeans you mentioned, Colt, Fowler, Alison, Colt et al did or tried to consciously do the same and probably much earlier than MacKenzie.

But I do feel from what I know now and can see (particularly Cypress) that Mackenzie may have taken the idea to a new level of excellence with his camouflage technique ideas as they applied to golf architectural creations (although somewhat unlike what he intended in military applications).

But the thing I want to clarify to you, and I didn't mean and don't think I ever said, was that regarding this idea of the evolution of architecture that whatever MacKenzie (or the other Europeans mentioned) created that it was NOT some kind of "consistent" style or architectural process that was used by all, or at least not simultaneously! Whatever they did and however they did it did not make ALL others do the same thing!

Certainly MacDonald, Raynor, Banks, Langford and some others did not get into the same style of architecture that those others mentioned did. Theirs was very different, to be sure, and continued as a very different style for quite some time and at the same time as MacKenzie and the others.

I never meant to say otherwise, and I never did, but I think you misunderstood that!

I happen to admire the naturalistic architectural style of Mackenzie and the the other Europeans mentioned more or even the most, but I also admire the styles of Raynor, Banks, Langford etc too and a lot!

And although I see it as far more man-made and engineered looking than the other style there is something very appealing about it!

But still, I can see very clearly what they (Raynor et al) did and didn't do architecturally and there is no mystery in it to me, no paradox at all.

Rodney had a few things to say about the mentality generally of an "engineer" and certainly in architecture that I find very interesting.

And the fact that Raynor and the other "engineered style" architects carried on with their style during the time that others were doing other things and creating other styles has numerous reasons attached to it that I think are also interesting and worth discussing!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »