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Donnie Beck

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Corporate Golf Courses ?
« on: January 30, 2005, 07:27:23 PM »
Tommy’s Gillette or Schick topic got me thinking. With all the corporate stadiums and bowl games, when are we going to start seeing corporate golf courses?
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2005, 07:43:05 PM »
Trump National Brands......I don't think it could get anymore corporate then that! Of course you also have the failed TPC experiment. I do however think if I had to say to the world I played the majority of my golf at Masseningale Douche Hills Golf Club, I would rather not be playing the game at all. But that's me.

I'm sure Shivas wouldn't have a problem with it though. Especially since we now know what a choirboy he is with the shaving products! ;D

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Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2005, 07:44:23 PM »
Donnie,

So you're envisioning a course witha total corporate allegiance throughout it's entire operation?

I'd run this idea by Hooters corporate...pronto!

Joe
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Jason Mandel

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2005, 07:44:59 PM »
Donnie,

The ACE Insurance group recently renamed their new course that was once Eagle Lodge, the ACE club outside of Philadelphia.  The club is corporate oriented, but word has it is strugging mightily.

Jason
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Ken Fry

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2005, 07:50:05 PM »
On the serious side, what about Firestone?  NCR?  Westfield in Ohio (an insurance company)?  Longaberger?  Even the Kohler Resort?

On the personal side, I'm following Joe.....
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Robert Thompson

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2005, 08:06:22 PM »
IBM used to own a number of courses -- I know of at least one in Canada (the old IBM Country Club, now nine holes). I assume the same was true for the U.S.
Anyone?
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Mike_Young

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2005, 08:08:38 PM »
Dupont also
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Jeff Goldman

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2005, 08:09:41 PM »
Someone here posted that these days Riviera is accepting only (mostly?) corporate memberships.
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Phil_the_Author

Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2005, 08:17:01 PM »
One of the IBM country Clubs was on Long Island.
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PThomas

  • Total Karma: -7
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2005, 08:19:44 PM »
Tom - you brought up the 'failed TPC experiment"...do you mean the courses fail architecturally, financially or, in some cases,  both?
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Mike_Young

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2005, 08:25:07 PM »
There is a deal to buy 5 of the TPC's right now.
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Larry_Rodgers

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2005, 08:28:19 PM »
Would the MGM's Shadow Creek qualify as a corporate Golf Course?
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2005, 08:31:49 PM »
Paul, In every aspect.  The only two that seem to work for me is Sawgrass & PGA West, which of course they don't even use, especially with this ridiculous superball.

Maybe its time the Stadium Course at PGA West gets its revenge!

I'll throw Jon's Avenal course in there just to appease him because I do think with some interesting looking bunkering it could be decent. At least from what I have seen of it on TV.

The rest, well they all probably belong in the same cradle of Golf Architecture madness as Eagle Trace. Especially TPC of Valencia.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 08:32:49 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »
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Ken Fry

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2005, 08:32:44 PM »
Mike,

Meadowbrook's bid to buy the TPC courses fell through.  Is anyone else currently chasing them?
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2005, 08:33:37 PM »
Quote from: Ken Fry on January 30, 2005, 08:32:44 PM
Mike,

Meadowbrook's bid to buy the TPC courses fell through.  Is anyone else currently chasing them?

Mickey Mouse....
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Steve Lapper

  • Total Karma: 4
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2005, 08:41:09 PM »
Outside of Shadow Creek there aren't any truly successful corporate golf clubs (perhaps we could consider ANGC one, but that's another argument for another time)

The reason are simple: If the corporation is publicly traded it is near impossible to justify any golf course that is not self-sustaining and at least as profitable as the average ROE (return on equity) of that company. Otherwise, it is too damn difficult to defend to the covering analysts and their shareholder base.

 Some firms have tried it. Hamilton Farm began as a vision of the then CEO of Lucent, Richard McGinn to have 20 corporate memberships at $2m per. That dream went up in smoke with the dot-bust of 2000. AIG has built Morefar on its own land and operates it as a private club with several international corporate memberships that belong to its affiliates and business customers. It still operates on a deficit.

 Trump's courses are all loss leaders so far but his ego foresees the day when everyone wants to belong to some piece of our modern-day PT Barnum....we'll see!

  In short, not much will likely ever evolve for any pure corporate golf. When courses are built as profit centers for resort and tourist-realted businesses they stand a chance. After that, the business model appears to veer straight for failure.
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michael j fay

Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2005, 08:51:31 PM »
Laurel Valley is a corporate course during the week.

More Far in Westchester has been a corporate course forever as has The International in Bolton Massachusetts.

The idea has been around for a very long time and many of the courses have evolved into member owned courses eg. Whitinsville, Waconah and various others in Massachusetts. Bethlehem Steel owned and operated a course in Pennsylvania.

In this day and age it is easier for a corporation to have a membership in the TPC system than to have to carry a course on the balance sheet. Can't hide a golf course in the annual report in a bad year, but the expenses of TPC membership is rather anonymous.
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Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2005, 08:52:25 PM »
It used to be that many of the mills etc in the South would build courses for employees etc.  And many of the courses you see in South America were British railroad courses.
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Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2005, 08:59:25 PM »
IBM had country clubs in Westchester County and Poughkepsie, NY. MBNA recently sold Deerfield in Delaware. Hercules CC in Delaware was recently opened to non employees and changed name to Delaware National. I don't know if Hercules still owns it. Texaco had a course for employees in Houston that still exists. Weyhill at Saucon Valley was owned by Bethlehem Steel. Philadelphia Electric CC now McCall Field is owned by PECO now a part of Exelon. DuPont as mentioned above must be the largest facility for employees.
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John Foley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2005, 09:23:27 PM »
Along w/ the IBM courses I know GE had a few (one in Pittsfield MA).

What about Magna north of Toronto?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 09:37:04 PM by john_foley »
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Chris Munoz

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2005, 09:24:15 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on January 30, 2005, 08:17:01 PM
One of the IBM country Clubs was on Long Island.

It was IBM Country Club, now it is called The Village Club of Sands Point, Tom Doak did some work over there a couple of years ago.

Muni
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2005, 09:32:47 PM »
There's several courses in northern Michigan owned by labor unions...
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Rob_Waldron

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2005, 09:42:51 PM »
Hercules, like its Wilmington area neighbor, DuPont built a 27 hole golf course as an amenity for its employees. The Hercules course was sold several years ago to a local hospitality group led by Ron Holiday. The primary 18 holes and the clubhouse was to be retained as a private club. The extra nine was deemed ideal for residential development. I am not sure if the third nine currently in play or serving as a home to Seniors.
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2005, 10:22:07 PM »
I think Donnie's intent of this thread was corporate sponsored courses, lending their name for marketing reasons, not corporated-owned courses for their employees, like Dupont has, of which I was a member (and employee) in the early 90's for 2 years.

IBM had another employee club in Johnson City, NY, called IBM Homestead, which is now called Homestead Course at Heritage Country Club.  It was designed by Cirba fave, John Van Kleek in 1937.
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Larry_Rodgers

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Re:Corporate Golf Courses ?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2005, 11:38:07 PM »
How about Texaco outside Houston? Where does it rate in consideration for corporqte golf?
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