[Mike_Young]

As Tom, Brad and Paul say ....I don't think there is a crisis.
We have just started to look at golf in a different light than past generations.  I think past generations looked at it as a cottage industry. Out of 17000 courses there are only about 3500 that are considered "A" courses and this site probably only discusses less than 300 of those(that might be high)....  FACT:  the rest of these mom and pops aren't going to tell anyone what they are making.  Golf is much like a local favorite restaurant or bar.  Only the locals know of it...."foreigners" have to ask to find it...same for golf.....the amount of advertising it takes for the normal golf course to be heard of is tremendous..plus many of these smaller guys have their clientele and don't advertise so you never know of them and they don't respond to surveys.  YET...these players are just like diners..they go to a fine restaurant every now annd then. These courses are small business men that make it work...no USGA greens,average or mediocre irrigation, riding greensmowers...don't care who their architect was .and they just keep at it...
All of the above tells me that golf is most profitable when operated as as independent small business...no room for management companies to add a layer of management plus larger clubhouses and F&B which all has to be subsidized by the actual green fee.  
There are plenty of these places around but they aren't talking.  Seems the ones making the most noise are the ones that have put golf in the position it is in and want it to keep going that way.
Also..I know I am sounding cynical but from what I have seen of First Tee...much like "oil for food" ...there are better ways.

[Michael Whitaker]

Are there enough places where kids can play for nothing/next to nothing, get (almost) free clubs, and get a SERIES (not just one, because the game is damn hard when you are just starting out -- and sometimes even when you are 43 years old!) of very cheap lessons.

The SC Junior Golf Association (through their "Junior Golf Land" project) provides FREE: clubs, balls, bag, quality instruction, a nine-hole par three course, practice range & short game area for all participants. SC's Junior Golf Lands are open to any youth group.

My wife does play a bit, and of course I'm wishing very badly that my girls take up the game....we go to the driving range and play minature golf, but "the bug" hasn't bit any of them yet...perhaps the main reason for that is that they have so many recreation options...they all play several sports like soccer, basketball and volleyball...maybe that's the best sign that golf needs to do a much better job of competing for kids' interest

Going to the driving range and playing minature golf will not get kids interested in the GAME of golf. Kids get interested in soccer and such because they are FUN GAMES to play. To most kids golf often seems like monotonous drudgery. That is why the SC Junior Golf Association started the "Little Legends" series which is open to junior golfers between the ages of 8 and 12. The mission of the series is to provide youth with a fun team environment to introduce golf competition and friendship. There are three seasons conducted each year and all matches are played at the par 3 course at Junior Golf Land. This program is teaching kids to enjoy the GAME! Once they are hooked on the game they decide for themselves how much they want to work on improving their skill at striking the ball. Too often, we try and teach our kids the other way around... learn to hit the ball, then we'll teach you the game. That's why we have so many Range Jockeys in the USA. I made that mistake with my son (who is now 25) and he never found a lasting interest in golf... but, he loved soccer, swimming, and football.

Americans are too fixed on "What did you shoot today?" We could learn a lot from the folks in Scotland who ask, "Did you enjoy your game?"

[Ken Fry]

From a business perspective, those of you directly involved know of pockets around the country where there remains a demand for quality golf and people are willing to pay for it.

The sad part are too many developers have attacked golf with a Wall Street mentality.  The crisis we see in the upper midwest is simple:  there are too many golf courses.  The boom of the late '80's early '90's turned "fringe" players off because of high fees.  Some great courses were built, but now they are barely staying above water.

Forget gettting rich off courses.  Many facilities in our area are barely making ends meet and the only way for many to survive is for others to fail (close).  Demand isn't changing much, it's unfortunately been spread so thin by too many options.

Ken

[SB]

I wholeheartedly agree that the "crisis" is for only those of us in the business.  Course owners, manufacturers, etc., made less in 04 which was less than 03 which was less than 02.  You can buy a golf course for cents on the dollar over what it cost to construct.  But that has always been the case, and every businessman takes risks.  

However, the crisis is in part due to the complaints seen on this board and by golfers in general.  Slow play limits the number of customers, as do the high prices forced by high construction costs.  Demographics tell us that free time is at an all time low due to work pressures and family commitments that simply didn't exist 20 years ago.  Revenue is falling yet golfers (except many on this board) demand premium course maintenance.  The crisis is that we have a fantasic product, and we can't figure out why 92% of people don't play, and there is no quick fix.  

But, the market has a way of sorting things out and, as golf courses go bankrupt and resell with lower debt loads or get turned into houses, prices will come down which should be great for most people on the board.  

[Alfie]

Matt Ward said ;

"Golf takes too much time to play -- when you calculate 5-6 hours and the transport time necessary to play the net effect is a time loss that many people can't buy into for the long haul. Clearly, not when it sacrifices other key elements of their lives. Let's not also forget the associated costs."

I think many on here, and elsewhere would be inclined to agree with the time and money theory ? But I'm afraid, marvellous as the comments on this site are (usually), we keep on going round in circles and get nowhere !

Crisis ? Of course golf is in crisis ! Especially from where I'm sitting in ye good old Hame. But people here don't want to recognise golf's little problems - at least not until it's too late when crisis turns to disaster (for some ?) The R & A publicly declare that "they see no problem with the sport" ? At least, so they say ? So they don't recognise that grass roots clubs and courses are in REAL danger of closing in Scotland.

I haven't found ANYTHING that comes close to this website with the vast experience and knowledge of golf at the core of the comments made. But talking is one thing, and it's good - but actions speak louder than words - especially when nobody is taking any notice !

The golfer (consumer) is being mismanaged by our ruling bodies and the interests of the industry as a whole. Yes, here I go again. Distance in golf equates to the time and money negatives being aired worldwide. Anyone who can't GET that and is involved with the sport - badly needs a wake up call !

But nobody appears to "have the balls" to do something about it.
Travelling golfers (to Scotland) need not panic. TOC, Dornoch, Troon, Turnberry etc...... will still be here to greet you with your big dollars. It's just that some of the others might not be ! But it will all level itself out in the business world - wont it ?

Alfie

[Jason Topp]

In my view the primary reason it is difficult to spark participation in the game is not the time or the cost (those can be circumvented if one works at it hard enough).  To me, the primary challenge is that if one goes to a golf course without knowing what to do, that person is going to be intimidated.  The game is difficult, the etiquette not readily obvious and the safety issues numerous.  I would guess that every single person I know that plays the game had a mentor of some sort that made them feel welcome at the course and made it fun.  I had many such mentors:

my father - got me on the course even though he didn't play much

The pro at the course I first played - big smile, welcomed my friends and me even though we were about to go out and shoot about 150.

Regulars at that course - who made us feel welcome even though we must have been a pain to have around.

A good amateur player - who let my play with him in the evenings, asked me to caddy for him, treated me with the highest respect, and always introduced me as "going to be a player one day"  (never happened).  

A competitor in the first tournament I caddied in -  who taught me how to properly attend a flagstick without malice in the middle of a tournament.

Father of a friend in high school - who would always listen to us describe our games with interest and offered this nugget of wisdom "Watch four golfers in a conversation.  Each person is talking about themselves and does not care about what anyone else has to say."

And countless others.

I think the game only grows through individual, welcoming attention given by experienced players to new ones.  I suspect 12 hole courses, first tee programs and other innovative ideas fail absent that ingredient.

The biggest challenge to me in playing the same role is to make it fun for me.  Playing golf with someone not experienced with the game can be frustrating, slow and can result in bodily injury.  If I am not enjoying myself the new golfer knows it.

The latest way I have found to make it fun is to play alternate shot with my young kids.  It teaches them about keeping score and the rules without the attendant pressure and provides for some interesting practice for me.  There is no more pressure that having a five footer for a "new record" with your son.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

The game itself is nearly in crisis because the new equipment is changing the game too much.  The long hitters play totally different game than the short hitters and the gap is getting greater all the time.  Something needs to be done before the game is changed too much.  Unfortunately the golf equipment business is mostly run by American companies so I doubt USGA will never got the balls to change the rules so dramatically.

The rhythm of play is getting worse.  The longer hitter’s waiting time between the shots is longer because after the drive you have to wait for the others to hit their second or maybe even third shot before the next one can be played.  Then on the tee you have to wait longer to get the previous group out of your reach.  In tighter courses the balls are getting deeper and deeper into trouble.  More time is spent on searching the ball.  All this creates more uneven distance between the playing groups and also total blocks on the course.

And of course the price of the new equipment is ridiculous.

The game isn’t so pleasing as it used to be ten years ago.  

Jari

[Tom_Doak]

Jari:

You don't have to pay for the new equipment.  No one does.

It isn't the cost of building new courses, either ... there are 30,000 courses already out there, and they can only charge as much money as the public is willing to pay.  If they can't attract enough players they will have to lower their maintenance standards.

I agree with you that the atmosphere of the game has changed, and how we address that is critical to keeping the attraction of the game.

[cary lichtenstein]

I know numerous players, both men and women, who play far less, or not at all anymore, and I can tell you why:

They don't enjoy golf because they just aren't good enough.

Golf can be very wearing on a person. Everyone has an ego, and to get it constantly deflated by poor shots, drives people away from the game.

I know plenty of people sho would rather work than play golf because they feel good about themselves at work, and not at golf.

Golf is not in crisis, maybe the developers and their bankers are unrealistic.

The old laws of supply and demand will take care of the oversupply of golf courses, just like they do on any other real estate project.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Tom,

I don't have to pay.  I still play MacGregor Muirfield blades I bought in mid 80's.  But most of the players just keep on buying new ones all the time because they help them or at least they think so.

I cannot totally agree on the cost of the new courses because the situation is very different here in Finland than it is in USA.  In Finland we have over 100 000 players and each year more people are starting the game.  That is good but we have only 110 courses and 45 of them are only 9 hole courses so there is a huge need for new courses.  The Finnish Golf Association has calculated that if the current trend continues we should build 10 new courses per year during the next 10 years.  E.g. in Helsinki area there are about 20 000 players who do not have a home course.

Most of the courses are financed by selling shares to the company that builds and runs the golf course.  The company is usually owned by the players so it is normally the players themselves who build and run the course.  The pay and play course is not a solution here because the season is so short that it is extremely difficult to finance the yearly expenses for an 18 hole course.  That is why we have only a couple of 9 hole pay and play courses.  

Nearly all older clubs are full so the prices are going higher.  The price of the share for my home course costs more than four times as much as it used to 10 years ago.  Nowadays almost all new courses have been high class courses that are too expensive for average people.
 
So the situation is getting here worse but for different reasons.

Jari

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Having young players to start the game is very important issue in the long run.  The baby boomers are now getting retired and will keep the money coming to the courses for a while but what about after 20 years.  Most of them are dead or ill to play the game.  The new age groups will be smaller in western countries in the future.  This will surely get the number of players down if young players are not getting support for their playing.

Michael was writing about "little league" golf by the SC Junior Golf Association.  In Sweden they have had this kind of system working for decades.  They have a very effective system that gets young people playing the game.  They do not have any special courses for children but a working relationship with the local pro, some adult volunteers and the children.  E.g. children of the golf club are grouped by their age or skill.  They get free of charge lessons each week and the coaches keep them playing and having fun.  The system works much in the same way as in other sports like soccer, athletics, ice hockey etc.

This kind of system is now used in Finland also but I think it is the most effective in Sweden.  The game has also been a family sport in Sweden for decades and fortunately it seems to becoming that also in Finland now.

Jari

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The crisis in the game is obviously due to decreasing numbers of new players, secondary to video games and the like.
The first tee was mentioned earlier as a potential source of future players.
I am behind the new first tee project here in Texarkana, a group of us spent 750,000 builing a facility..driving range and floodlit parv 3 golf course..and have just been granted a first tee chapter.
It is all very exciting, but cannot work without the help of current golfers either that being financial of volunteer time.
Upkeep of a facility will be expensive, without donations we will lose our..you know what..so I feel as golfers it is our responsiblilty to dig a little deeper to dinaote to the first tee facilities.
If you are close to a first tee facility, pledge them $100..all those "smaller" donations are what is going to make the difference and help promote the game.
It may not be a perfect potential growth source, but it is the best we have at this point...please support it.

[Mark Brown]

I (Mark Brown - founder and former editor of Links Magazine) and my partner (Terry LaGree - developer and former COO of Black Diamond Ranch and a majority partner of Barbaron Golf Course Construction Co.) founded Prestwick 12 Golf, a golf course design and development company in September, 2004 which addresses the four major factors that have slowed the  growth of golf (based on the no. of players and total rounds  played per year during the past 15 years.

The four major factors are time, affordability,the difficulty of learning the game and the difficulty of modern golf courses, and we offer a solution to all 4 factors.

We are building loops of 6 holes, rather than 9, which addresses the time factor, more strategic (rather than penal) player-friendly courses that addresses the difficulty of modern courses, as well as affordability, because our courses will be more natural with less bells and whistles and will be constructed in a cost-effective manner -- without comprising quality.

We will also have extensive practice and learning centers at each course for all levels of golfers, and special instruction and education classes for beginners, including playing lessons.

We will work with home builders and developers who can build 6, 12 or 18 hole courses along with practice facilties.

In most cases the courses will be located within golf communities, but will be accessible to all daily-fee golfers. The holes will be of regulation length and will have alternate routes of play based on the players skill level and penchant for risk-taking.

We will be launching a major promotional and marketing program in March, but have brochures and a press release available now if anyone is interested.

We believe that the most sensible and cost-effective number of holes is 12 (with alternate tees and several double greens), thus the name Prestwick 12 golf, as Scotland's Prestwick GC was originally 12 holes and 13 Open Champion ships were played over 12 holes. The standard size of 18 holes was adopted because the home of golf, St. Andrews Old Course has 18 holes. The Scottish influence will be evident throughout the facilities.

Developers

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I expect, and predict the contributors to this website will be all over these ideas of yours like a zillion happy little ticks in a hot but moist July hayfield!

[George Pazin]

Good luck, Mark - I have a lot of respect for a man who acts rather than simply speaks. I can't speak for the others, but I'd like to see the brochures and press releases.

[Jason Topp]

Good luck, Mark - I have a lot of respect for a man who acts rather than simply speaks. I can't speak for the others, but I'd like to see the brochures and press releases.

I agree wholeheartedly.  

[Alfie]

Mark & Terry,

Some worthy ideas and as a Scot, I wish you every success with them.

But....natural - sensible - cost effective - 12 holes - Scottish influence ? Why don't you make your own Competition ball an alternative too !

Good luck - and make it work.

Alfie Ward

[Gary_Mahanay]

Micheal Wharton-Palmer,

How's Hank Haney's Texarkana Golf Ranch doing up there?  Is it taking care of the demand for affordable golf in the Texarkana area?  Do you think they get very many beginner type golfers at this facilty?  I think that Hank's comment was that he may give $400 an hour golf lessons but his heart was in affordable golf, or something like that.

Gary

[frank_D]

What is your solution to fix these problems?

Brother Jari Rasinkangas

my second post ever to this site was regarding TWELVE holes as a standard round [as a potential solution to the TIME a typical round takes]

i did learn here the initial british opens played were contested over TWELVE holes originally and that a number of courses today (ie Ostego) do have routing of six holes a side

i concluded the TWELVE hole idea was indeed marketable and the novelty factor alone would be an attraction however even solving some "problems" with it would ultimately generate different "problems" and i do not believe it would interest those that don't play avidly now anyway

it seems to me regardless of the routing - the occassional player for a variety of reasons will remain an infrequent player similarly the avid player puts up with long days on the course routinely as part of the program and keeps coming back

i don't know that these are "problems" which in general can be fixed BUT as a POTENTIAL solution i do notice TYPICALLY seven minute tee time seperations or less lead to six hour (or more) rounds and twelve minute tee time seperations or more lead to four and a half hour (or less) rounds

the most popular solution on this site which was suggested to me then was - simply walk off the course after your twelve holes !

my utopia would have three (A,B and C) sides of six holes each - to play two different sides per round in alternating fashion (AB, AC, BA, BC, CA and CB)  - the reason for three sides of six each would be so traditionalist could play an entire eighteen (ABC, BCA, CAB etc)

[frank_D]

We will work with home builders and developers who can build 6, 12 or 18 hole courses along with practice facilties.

brother Mark Brown

i don't mind sharing the typical response from developers i heard was to the effect "we wish a course were twenty two holes long so we can line the additional fairways with homes we charge a "golf-view" premium for !"

so instead i looked for an eighteen hole course which could be "reduced" to twelve OR re-routed to three sides of six holes each - both approaches failed to yield the desired outcomes so i can see where you seem to have a templated original layout

one other thing happened - you don't seem to reduce the overall acerage required for twelve as for eighteen if the holes are ALL "regulation" length - but maybe that's why you have double greens and common tee areas if i'm reading it right

geographically - where are they planned ?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Tom D. & Brad et al..

Crisis depends on your perspective, on a micro level, if you belong to a club that is struggling, crisis doesn't even come close to describing the kind of planning being done in an effort to survive.  I have first hand experience.  

On a macro level the game can only be described as stagnant.  With Real estate values skyrocketing in many areas of the country,I have to believe that the market will cause many of the marginal courses today to be plowed under and paved over.  It only makes economic sense.  

Also as more and more real estate development courses are built, I wonder whether they will survive following the initial burst of excitement?  Developers sell out and then homeowners and club members are left to support what may or may not be a viable golf facility or worse a Country Club.  Without the ability to sell the dirt to fund the expenses of the club, members are forced to support their money pit dream.  

I agree that families are the solution but expense is a real hindrance to getting the kids out to play!

[Steve Lang]

 

so shouldn't this thread be retitled, golf commerce in crisis?

organized sport can have crises like player irresponsibility..

gaming can have crises when handicaps are meaningless..

business can have crises like bankrupcy..

how can a game be in crisis.. its a game, if you don't have fun you don't play..

never met anyone who didn't have fun hitting it in the air, even relatively speaking, long or not, that treated the endeavor as a game..

[Mark Brown]

Frank,

Our first courses will likely be in west central Florida, in the triangle formed by Orlando, Tampa and Ocala (or Black Diamond) There's good elevation changes and sandy soil which will keep our costs down.

Thanks to all for the encouragement. I'm sure we'll need it, although I have spent the last 6 months answering tough questions, and so far have been able to respond with a solution.

[Mark Brown]

WH Cosgrove:

I agree with you about your comments regarding a number of courses being bull-dozed over and turned into real estate properties.

I think you're also right about equity members being saddled with exhorbitant dues to pay for the bells and whistles and golden palaces that the developer built to sell lots and passes the burden onto the Property Owner's Association.

We don't need anymore luxury or upscale course but 40% of all new courses are being driven by real estate developers. They are willing to lose money on the golf to gain the premium on the homesites, and this isn't healthy for golf business or the community residents. Some of them are ghost towns because many people bought for speculation and investment reasons and have no intention of building homes.
But some developers don't care what they leave the members and residents with.

The golf business does have to rethink its strategy and move in new directions. Hopefull, Prestwick 12 Golf will contribute something to help changing the mindset of developers and golfers -- including new golfers.

[Dan King]

I have long been an advocate of turning Lincoln Park in San Francisco into one of the finest 12 hole courses in the world. They do have money and plans to someday redo the course. The area isn't really big enough for a great 18 hole course, but the setting is beautiful and deserves something special.

Lincoln Park goes around the Legion on Honor and the 17th hole has a great view of the Golden Gate Bridge and up the coast across the opening of the Bay.



So far there has been very little (actually no) interest in going with 12 holes. They think golfers wouldn't be interest in it. Perhaps the two loops of six holes would help.

Dan King

They will never play a United States Open Championship at Lincoln Park. But then again, those of us who have negotiated Lincoln's hills and scraped shots off her bare lies don't care about that. The course is vivid in our memories for its tumbling terrain and its rock-hard fairways and concrete greens. Most important of all we remember Lincoln Park because it is where we grew up.
 --Bo Links (Follow the Wind)

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