Tom Doak & Co. vs Crenshaw & Coore

[Mark Brown]

Tom,

I'll take your lead to start a thread comparing the nature of your design group and Crenshaw & Coore's.

I'll suggest a few angles that could be examined.

1. Philosophy on taking jobs based on the site.
2. The number of projects tackled at one time.
3. Philosophy on quantity of dirt moved.
4. The force that drives and inspires each team, ie. artistry
pure enjoyment of design, money, fame, respect, making a lasting contribution to the game, self-expression
5. How the members of the team work with each other -- amount of delegation to the staff/associates.
6. Foundational beliefs and principles.
7. What type of projects you like the best and why
8. What stage of your careers are you in?
9. Routing philosophies
10. What design elements best test the mettle of a player.
11. How important is length and producing a true test of golf for tour level players
12. How much do you try to accommodate all levels of golfers.
13. What or who influenced you the most
14. The proper place and balance of strategic, heroic and penal design features.
15. What are the 3 most important goals you try to accomplish on any project.
16. How has each design team influence the present and future course of golf course design.
17. What are your favorite design elements and features to create strategy (incl. use of water)
18. What are your thoughts about  designing greensites and putting surfaces.

Which of the above topics would you like to throw out?
What ones would like to add?

I think we should all allow you and C&C to do the talking without interruption by us for a pre-determined amount of time. After that we can ask you questions and converse. Let's not muddy the thread with unimportant chatter and gamesmanship between GCA members.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:  I would be happy to participate in this in a couple of weeks after I've finished traveling the globe [I'll be in Montana and Mexico and Ireland and Scotland between now and then].

However, I haven't seen much of Bill or Ben online, so I don't know how you intend to make the other half of your discussion work.  And I would enjoy the discussion much more myself if I took turns with them.

One of the most fun days I've had in golf was looking around their Warren Course at Notre Dame one morning while it was under construction with my associate Tom Mead, visiting with Bill and Tom Beck and their shapers, and then having them come up to Lost Dunes that afternoon to see what we were doing.  At that point most people had the impression that our styles were very similar, but those two courses could not be more different, and by the end of the day we were all just shaking our heads at what the other camp was doing.

I think that we would tend to have similar answers to a lot of your questions, but our organizations are quite different and I think our courses are quite different as well ... although I am not sure I could describe the differences in a general way.

In fact, I think you'd probably get a lot more out of the discussion if you could find a way to include my associates and theirs in the discussions, too.

[Paul Carey]

vs.  implies a competition and that seems pretty ridiculous.  Both are quite accomplished.  This seems as silly as an earlier thread that tried to understand which of C&C were the genius in the partnership.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have a certain level of discomfort with trying to compare in the sense of one better than the other. First both or all three are very good. Now comparing styles or certain aspects of their work or even many of the thoughts you expressed could be very interesting if both were to participate. Tom is a sport to even agree to this. I am frankly just glad both of the companies are designing during my life and i have the pleasure of seeing and playing their courses. I do feel both are at the top of the ladder and that their best work is still ahead of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I liked the questions Tom Brown asked.

Not in a competitive or comparitive sense, but in a general, informational sense.

Some of these questions might make for an interesting presentation at the GCA.com get together at Hidden Creek on May 15-16.

I know that I'd like to hear you discuss some of your design philosophies and I'm sure the others who tune in to GCA.com would like it as well.

Hopefully, your schedule will permit a side trip to Hidden Creek.

[Mark Brown]

Tom & Others

I did not mean this to be competitive at all -- nobody's got the right or wrong philosophies. I love the fact that they are very different in some aspects, and I can't wait to hear them talk back and forth, if I can get Bill & Ben to respond on GCA.com. We are indeed blessed to be able to witness the work of what I believe will assuredly be two of the top 5 design teams in the history of golf course architecture, and be able to converse with them.

It is very considerate and generous of Tom to agree to try to pull this off, and I think we should include their associates.

I will talk to Bill and maybe the Spring meeting at Hidden Creek is the best way to do it. Any brief suggestions are welcomed. And I am surely humbled just to be a part of this. It has nothing to do with me. I was motivated by the joy of hearing them share their views with us.

As one salesman at LINKS said to me once "Isn't it great that there's jobs like these for guys like us."

Thanks again Tom. I will report back to the group as soon as possible.

 

[Philippe Binette]

I haven't seen enough of Coore&Crewshaw work (nine holes at Friar's Head in pooring rain where you can't see more than 150 yards is not enough...)

But I know two things about this topic...

1) It will take more than a thousand words to try to explain anyone's point.

2) It will probably lead us to an extremely long debate that won't proove much...

Both are doing some cool stuff, so go out ans enjoy their courses...

[Michael Moore]

vs.  implies a competition and that seems pretty ridiculous.  Both are quite accomplished.  This seems as silly as an earlier thread that tried to understand which of C&C were the genius in the partnership.

Mr. Carey -

I agree that the Manichaean "this v. that" threads are tiresome.

As the auteur of the thread inquiring as to why we rarely hear about Ben Crenshaw on this site, I must rush to my own defense and remind you that my original question was about perception, attribution, and golfclubatlas.com, and had nothing to do with Coore and Crenshaw as architects.

[TEPaul]

I've mentioned a number of times on here over the years that it's such a valuable asset for all of us to have Tom Doak contribute to this website as often as he has.

But I certainly doubt we will have a discussion of the questions above between him and Coore and Crenshaw. I doubt Ben Crenshaw will be on here----as for Bill Coore he's said a couple of times he has no idea how to turn on a computer and he hopes he never finds out.

I do think Tom Doak's suggestions that if possible remarks on here from the crews of both companies would be great. I think some of C&C "The Boys" have looked on here over the years but I don't remember one contributing.

[TEPaul]

"As the auteur of the thread inquiring as to why we rarely hear about Ben Crenshaw on this site, I must rush to my own defense and remind you that my original question was about perception, attribution, and golfclubatlas.com, and had nothing to do with Coore and Crenshaw as architects."

MichaelM:

I'll rush to your defense on that thread too. You make the important distinction regarding what you asked on that thread in that remark above and I'm afraid that distinct was probably wholly missed on here. This website rarely picks up on questions about nuancy distinctions in "perceptions" if they even remotely smell the subject of "competition".  

It seems the natural inclination on here, as in our entire culture, is ranking things against each other and who or what's "better" or "best".

[Marty Bonnar]

I'll be in Montana and Mexico and Ireland and Scotland between now and then.

Hmmm, so Tom Doak is coming back to Scotland.
So, Tom can you tell us if it's only a playing or passing visit or is something more 'interesting' afoot...?

Cheers,
FBD.

[Sean_A]

Martin

When I was booking courses for East Lothian, one of the folks told me there was another course to be built not far from Gullane near Dirlington, I believe.  Don't know if Tom is involved, but this person believed he may be.

Ciao

Sean

[Brian_Gracely]

From Tom's website, under "Courses in Planning"

Renaissance Club at Archerfield, Gullane, Scotland

[Marty Bonnar]

Thanks Brian, hadn't seen that page at Renaissance..

And there was me thinking Tom was making a special trip just to interview Rihc for that internship.....

FBD.

Tom, will the 'Renaissance Club' be Public or Private? How cool it would be to have a Doak nearby to experience!

[TEPaul]

Doak and Renaissance golf at Archerfield?

Is that the land immediately to the rght of Muirfield if you're looking out from the Muirfield clubhouse?

[THuckaby2]

Doak and Renaissance golf at Archerfield?

Is that the land immediately to the rght of Muirfield if you're looking out from the Muirfield clubhouse?

That would have to be it, Tom.  There's a blurb on it in this month's Links magazine and they said it's the land in between Muirfield and North Berwick.

TH

[TEPaul]

That may be TomH but perhaps it's a little farther to the right than that land immediately to the right of Muirfield. But perhaps I'm just thinking of that land way down by the water on the right that apparently Muirfield owns and has thought about putting another course on.

[Marty Bonnar]

Toms,
At this rate, Archerfield will soon be a major golf destination...

http://www.archerfieldgolfclub.com

FBD.

[Sean_A]

Dirleton, thats it.  I nice little village really.  It looks to me like they do not take visitors.  For a new facility trying to sell homes etc., this is a terrible web site!

Ciao

Sean

[Steve Mann]

guys-

is this the land that is/was owned by john ashworth of the clothing company fame?

[Mark Brown]

To all whiners:

Once, or if, we get a site and date for a Doak/Crenshaw & Coore symposium or roundtable set we'll have people sign up to attend and if we surpass a predetermined maximum number of attendees, we'll delete those who have said they did not like the idea.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm back from Mexico.

I am afraid the Hidden Creek dates will not work for me as that is part of the time my son is at my house during the month of May.  I try not to switch those dates around unless it absolutely has to be done.

Another time, or by e-mail, or whatever you can work out is fine with me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Spending time with your son is far, far more important than spending time with our group.

Hopefully, we'll connect at the 2006 winter-spring get together.

Thanks.