[Michael Whitaker]

In the most recent thread on Doonbeg an idea was expressed that higher and higher fees at "must play" courses in Ireland are contributing to the increase in slow play because visitors want to get their "money's worth" by squeezing out as much time as possible on the course.

It got me to thinking... is the ever increasing cost of golf a major contributor to slow play by creating a clientele that could care less about pace of play? It's not hard to imagine people having the attitude that they are NOT going to be hurried along when they've paid $150-$200 (or more) to play. Are there a lot of golfers out there saying to themselves, "To hell with speeding up. I paid my money, I'm going to enjoy the course at my pace?"

If this is true, how do we fix it?

[Mark_F]

YES! YES! YES!

It doesn't seem to matter whether you play a $20 course or a $200 dollar course, you always run into people for whom "etiquette" is something you eat at a French restaurant.

You can't fix it.  because it's all about MONEY.  The people playing public-type courses are obviously doing so for one reason - they don't have the connections to join a private club.  So the few who are honourable golfers will keep turning up anyway, if it's a decent track.  

[Tom Doak]

Absolutely true.  Not only do people paying more consciously take their time and enjoy it, but the more a course charges, the tougher it is for them to enforce a reasonable speed of play.

[Allan Long]

I agree with that stated before me, but I must add that in addition, I have run into those who wanted to see the entire course to get their money's worth, and play a set of tees they have no business playing.

[bakerg (Guest)]

Tom,

I agree with you on higher fees make it hard to enforce pace of play.  You see that at Pebble all the time.  Its the equivalant of a 5 star restaurant trying to turn tables a couple times a night.  It just isn't going to happen.  They paid $350 to play Pebble and they are going to take their time.  

[A_Clay_Man]

I think the term golfer is mis-used in the above post. Isn't it more likely that the socio-economic make-up of these so called golfers, are the reason for slow play.

 If they had the slightest clue, and they need to put twenty years in at their local muni, prior to tackling a monster. Plus, couples golf is da worst.

 Don't get me wrong, Pebble can be a monster as can any dog track if'n the payee ain't got (or never had) his/her game.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark:

I don't think this problem is restricted to public or resort courses. I know several private club members who feel that the high price they paid to join, and the high dues (and assessments) they pay to maintain their membership entitle them to "enjoy" themselves. They complain profusely about people "climbing up their backs" and pushing them along at a pace they consider breakneck. I guess the old adage is true: perception is reality.

[Paul P]

It's something I have been noticing a lot recently. I play in Mt Juliet a good bit. I always know the ones that will hold you up because they are turned out immaculately. It's their chance to play like they were a pro, lengthily preparing for each shot. I don't begrudge them their day out, but they should let me through.

[DJames]

Fix it?  Simple -- just add a surcharge($100+) to those who take more than 3.5-4 hours to play 18 holes.

[Tim Weiman]

DJames:

Interesting thought, but I wonder how practical it would be to administer.

Think of all the times there would be arguments about the cause of slow play. Everybody would always be pointing at the group in front and claiming they shouldn't be hit with the surcharge.

[DJames]

Tim:

Cry babies can be found everywhere, but where slow play is increasingly becoming a major headache, those courses will be able to develop a system.  I'd support it and I think those who truly love and respect the game would support it as well.  

[Tim Weiman]

DJames:

If confused by your references to "clubs". Do you mean to suggest the financial penalty approach to public access courses or private clubs?

If you are refering to public access, can you walk through how you would apply the financial penalty?

For instance, if I'm constantly being held up by the group in front, do I pay the penalty?

[DJames]

Tim:

I edited my response...I meant public courses.  Private clubs can assess any penalties these choose according to the rules of their club.  Sorry for the confusion.

[redanman]

Maybe a CC-FAD should come up with the schtchick(sic) of having yo pay your Fee of $200.  Then if you are not off by four and a half to five hours, you are escorted to your car by State Troopers.  (Unimportant, here's the meat.)  If you play in under four hours, you get $10 back for any minute under four hours up to a maximum of $100.

Hah!  Take that.  No slow play.

I wish.

[A_Clay_Man]

I just remembered something that would say this question is incorrect and that was the 6 six hour nine at waveland back in the day. The fees were like $3.75 and the pace was never any good, cept for when it was raining.

[Andy]

My view is twofold.  First, I do not see a direct connection between the fee and the pace except in this example.  People who play their normal home track from the middle tees, for some reason, want to play the back tees from Pebble, Pinehurst, Troon North, etc.  Not sure why they take this view, but they do.  The facilities that do the best job are those that attempt to pre-qualify players by handicap and place them on the right tees.  The second reason, I think, is simply watching some of the slow tour players and mimicking their actions.  Anyone agree with this?  I will say that when good planning goes into the design, as in the case with Talking Stick, even a slow round is probably no more than 4.5 hours, due to green/tee proximity, and the fact you can normally find your ball.  

[frank_D]

dear michael -
yes and no from my observations at the "high fee" courses here in SE FL during winter - YES at DORAL BLUE MONSTER because the many sand traps and high rough and players from the back tees who don't belong there and tee times booked 7 mins apart and hung over tourists who seem to come directly to the first tee from a night out at south beach - NO at HERON BAY or TURNBERRY ISLE or EMERALD DUNES because they're never over crowded and seem to have more repectful players

[Nick_Ficorelli]

Every course should adopt the following:

an  arbitrary time the would be reasonable and acceptable
for the completion of a round of golf and ,that time should be printed boldly on the scorecard as well as signage in the pro shop.
Think that  might  get players thinking from the get go?

[Doug Siebert]

Andy Zedman,

I agree with you as far as imitating the pros goes, it is one thing if people try putting with "the claw" because they see pros doing it, but when TV shows pros standing over their ball talking to their caddy for 20 seconds when it is their turn to play, throwing grass in the air three or four times, walking to the hole and back before chip shots or bunker shots, etc. it gives 100 shooters the idea that they should be doing these things too for some reason.  And they will, even if they don't know why.  Ever wondered why everyone takes off their glove before putting now when no one did 20 years ago?  If it hurts your feel that much why wouldn't these guys be taking off their gloves before a bunker shot or SW approach to the green as well?  OK, that's not really a time waster, but hearing that rrrrrip sound several times a hole really annoys me!

I don't really buy that playing tees too far back really makes much of a difference.  It is looking for lost balls and short game struggles around the greens that seem to take the most time (after the aforementioned pro imitation issue and the all time favorite of not being ready when its your turn)

I don't have a problem with qualifying tees via handicap, though since I hardly ever warm up before teeing off I'm always a bit worried I'll hit something particularly ugly off the first tee and they'll think I was just lying about my handicap  I'd even be willing to pay a bit more to play from the tips, at least at worthy courses.  I just don't think that's responsible for more than a few minutes of the delay; there are more low hanging fruit to worry about for speeding up play.

[A.G._Crockett]

Slow play causes, in no particular order:
    
1. Mandatory carts, cart path only!

2. Too many golfers on the course at once.

3. Excessively penal architecture (placement of hazards, etc.)

I don't think cost alone is a major cause of slow play, but I do think that the above items are much, much, much more likely to be found all in conjunction at high-end CCFADs or resort courses.

I have rarely experienced slow play at clubs, even when the guest fees are very high.  At munis, its probably too many golfers; at CCFADs that plus mandatory cart/cart path only.

[dominick]

Reminds me of my Ex.

[Jeff Shelman]

I agree with AG. So many of the high cash courses are mandatory carts, cart path only places and they turn into the batan death march (er, death ride).

I think that's a bigger part of the problem than people saying "I'm going to take my time." Maybe I'm naive, but I truly believe the majority of people want a reasonable pace of play.

[frank_D]

on slow play - my solution however is considered heresy but i'll repeat it here

to eliminate slow play
1) eliminate carts - this will encourage only the real golfer to play as walking becomes mandatory
2) if only real golfers are playing - as they will all respect the appropriate pace of play - no matter how crowded since only real golfers will be on the course
3) real golfers will also be less effected (timewise) to hazards of a penal course or know what to do if they are detained (pick up or speed up)

my definition of a real golfer
walks - knows where every other players ball is at all times - thinks of the club selection while approaching his/her ball - hits within twenty seconds of his/her turn - doesn't mind raking or fixing divots / ball marks of others in the interest of saving time - picks up if he/she lies par plus three on a hole and has yet to hole out - generally endevors to keep the whole foursome moving along [ie helps find others lost balls - knows the rules and how to respond to a situation involving the rules - on the green marks quickly and tends the flag at appropriate time (when he/she has the shortest putt)]

i play regularly with three others who have a hard time with the above but i know them personally well enough to keep expounding on the above and not risk a friendship - with anyone else - well - there's the rub

Slow play causes, in no particular order:
    
1. Mandatory carts, cart path only!

2. Too many golfers on the course at once.

3. Excessively penal architecture (placement of hazards, etc.)

I don't think cost alone is a major cause of slow play, but I do think that the above items are much, much, much more likely to be found all in conjunction at high-end CCFADs or resort courses.

I have rarely experienced slow play at clubs, even when the guest fees are very high.  At munis, its probably too many golfers; at CCFADs that plus mandatory cart/cart path only.

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