[RT]

Well in Oct 1912 Colt's proposed fees for Camberley Heath was 72 pounds 9 shillings.

[TEPaul]

"I'll enhance the photo so you can see what I mean.  You can see an entire 18 hole progression, but the back 9 holes look to be in a different hand, when compared with say holes 1-4, which are routed correctly."

Paul:

Thanks so much for that enlargement and enhancement. For the first time I can really see the progession of the way things probably evolved out there before Colt arrived.

I guess it's time to make some assumptions on what shows up on that stick routing to see how far it can takes us using various timelines and such from other things, like Tillinghast's reporting early on.

It seems to me the simple numbers on the greens would have to be Crump. The "G" alone looks like the way he used it for his first initial.

I think I'm beginning to see just why Colt's idea on #5 made such a difference to the routing! I also think there could be some real significance on the two placements of the green on #7. Apparently Crump placed it short and left first and then Colt drew it in the same place on the second topo and then they both apparently went back to where Crump probably initially had it which is where it is now. Why did they both probably do that? To make room for #8 I would say.

This is really great to be able to see this so clearly. Thanks so much for that. It's almost like it or they are beginning to talk to us somehow!

[TEPaul]

"Well in Oct 1912 Colt's proposed fees for Camberley Heath was 72 pounds 9 shillings."

RT;

That's very interesting! What would that have amounted to---maybe around $250 US dollars?

Interesting then about the story that Crump paid Colt $10,000 about nine months later at PVGC. I guess Harry had sort of a different pay scale in the States, huh?

Is it any wonder Finegan took that reported payment with a grain of salt, particularly as it was reported by a friend of Crump's almost 40 years after the fact?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I'll blow the whole plan up for you and you'll be able to see pretty much everything.

I noticed the 7th too.  It's not exactly the same as on the blue/red map but it is similar.

What do you make of the back 9 routing?  It looks pretty strange to me...all those holes zig zagging up and down the ridge between 15th and the 12th/13th.

Do you think Crump had help on holes 1-4?

[TEPaul]

"Tom
I'll blow the whole plan up for you and you'll be able to see pretty much everything."

Paul:

That'd be great. Now that I can see the numbers on the holes and particularly the contour lines better there're all kinds of things to be discovered, I think. For instance, it appears they brought #15 green site back and down some from the where Crump had it on the first routing plan. That'd make sense as #12 is a bit more left on the map than where Crump had the initial #10 whose place #12 sort of took on the map. If you blow the whole thing up for me I think I can come to a pretty good determination of how everything evolved before Colt arrived, while he was there and what Crump did after he left. We should be able to assign routing attribution pretty well in a day or two.

As of now I think the holes in a routing sense that are almost totally Colt's are #8, #9, #10, #11, and how #6 came into being as the par 4 it is after Colt came up with the plan for #5 which is so famously given to him as the key to unraveling the iterations that Crump was going through on the second half of the present front nine holes before he arrived. That #5 iteration of Colt's stopped Crump from going over the ridge past #9 green to a green site just to the right of the present 10th green for hole #6 and obviously later the iteration for #6 as a par 5 to the same green site as now that was reported by Tillinghast before Colt arrived.

Now that we can really see the details of what was assigned as holes at certain times and where they were (since we can now really see the contour lines and numbers) these maps are really starting to talk to us about what went on there when, why and by whom.

[Sean_A]

Tom W.

With unlimited funds, I would have a go myself!

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

Paul Turner said;

“I don't think Crump's suicide detracts from him, in any way.  But I would like to know why he did it.”

Paul: That’s not what I asked you. The question was not if Crump committed suicide do you think it detracted for him. This is the question I asked you and the question Wayne and I have asked Tom MacWood about ten times but he so far refuses to answer it on here. Again, this is the question I asked you;

“Let me ask you something else Paul. Since Tom MacWood is obviously dedicatedly avoiding answering our continuous questions about what he thinks the significance of a possible Crump suicide is to what that club has felt about Crump and Colt let me ask you if you think a possible Crump suicide has any significance in that vein and if so what would it be?”

I see you said you’d like to know why he did it. Did what? Simply died prematurely or committed suicide? Does that mean now you, like Tom MacWood, think you have proof Crump committed suicide? If you think you do have proof what is it? Last time Tom MacWood produced his “proof” it sort of evaporated into thin air when his source strenuously denied telling MacWood that he told him he had proof. This proof of a Crump suicide with you two has become like a ridiculous charade and you know it! If a Crump death certificate is produced and it says on it Crump died by a gunshot wound we’ll be more than happy to certainly admit that’s most definitely proof----but that DC has not been produced or even seen by either of you and neither of you can prove at this point what if anything it says on it. But we’ll get that DC in time. If it has "death by gunshot wound" on it we'll surely admit that's proof he committed suicide but if there's nothing on it about death by gunshot wound what are you two going to claim then----that the administering doctor at the time of Crump’s death was lying too to cover something up?

[T_MacWood]

TE
Relax. Paul has the same information that I (unfortunately) shared with you and Wayne. Once I get my ducks in a row I'll share the new information with you, Wayne and Paul....but not until that time. I frankly did a very poor job of insulating my sources the first go round....I won't being make that mistake again. Pateince.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I really regret belaboring this point.  But, the sources we spoke to, some of whom you spoke to previously, couldn't care less that we called them to discuss the Crump matter.  In fact, we had pleasant conversations though one of them was glad we didn't keep him on the phone for 2 hours    They didn't need to be insulated from us.

These guys have nothing to hide, especially the mayor and the judge.  They were very upfront with us.  Now, before you tell us that they fabricated their stories to us to protect themselves, I would consider that we conducted our conversations with them independently and both varified each other's conversations.  Your recollection is decidedly different.  

We'll get to the bottom of it.  You may end up being right, but due to a random process and not due to material you've uncovered to date.  

In any case, in your mind would the results or would they not have anything at all to do with the architectural attribution at PVGC?  While we think the results would be interesting, they are surely disconnected from anything to do with conspiracies or club machinations of any kind having to do with glorifying Crump to anyone else's expense.

[T_MacWood]

"We'll get to the bottom of it.  You may end up being right, but due to a random process and not due to material you've uncovered to date. "

Uh?

[TEPaul]

" I frankly did a very poor job of insulating my sources the first go round....I won't being make that mistake again. Pateince.

Tom:

Thanks for the offer to supply whatever you think you have or can get. But patience? We can certainly get a copy of Crump's death certificate and will very likely do that. If his DC does say "death from gunshot wound" then your sense from what you've been told by the clerk of Merchantville was right and our sense of what we'e been told by the same man and others there is wrong and we will be more than willing to admit that.

We look at the manner in which Crump may've died, particularly if it was suicide, as merely a curiosity. What we are asking you now is if it turns out his DC says "death by gunshot wound" why you think that's of any significance to what he did at PVGC or what his friends and the club thought he did or said he did, particularly as it relates to whatever Colt did or how the club looks at that?

As for the clerk at Merchantville NJ, since he or his father, the judge, are the only ones there you spoke with, I hardly think you need to look at them as a source you need to protect. One of the jobs of the clerk of Merchantville NJ is to answer these kinds of questions from people. Anyone is free to call them for that kind of information and they're free to give it, is the way they explained it to me. He certainly didn't feel with us that there was something he could say about a 1918 death certificate that was illegal. All he wanted to know from us was why you were saying he told you something he believes he never said.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

This failing to insulate a source thing of yours is pretty bizarre and even more amusing, frankly. What do you think you are---a reporter for the NY Times about to reveal the "Pentagon Papers"?  

And whatever source you have has nothing whatsoever to do with you answering our question of why you think it would have any bearing on PVGC's architecture, Crump's or Colt's part in it and how the membership felt about that IF Crump happened to have committed suicide.

[T_MacWood]

TE
When I see you so freely expose the identity of innocent bystanders on the Internet it makes me ill. I deeply regret ever sharing the info with you and Wayne.

[NAF]

Tom Paul--given a lot of what I do revolves around currencies..

Actually, as of 1912, vs. now the pound was worth about 60-65 times more than then now.. So 72 quid was about $4300-$4600, still not $10,000 but much closer..

[Sean_A]

Noel

Thank you, I was thinking in the region of $4500 myself.

Ciao

Sean

[TEPaul]

"TE
When I see you so freely expose the identity of innocent bystanders on the Internet it makes me ill. I deeply regret ever sharing the info with you and Wayne."

Tom MacWood:

Have you lost your mind? This man whose name you gave me is the clerk of Merchantville township NJ. He's a  politically appointed public official for God's sake. He's there to answer questions from the public about things in Merchantville township NJ. There's nothing remotely wrong with telling anyone about him or who he is---that's what he's there for. He's in the phone book for anyone to look up. Frankly, I called him and left a message for him about PVGC and Crump before I even spoke to you and before you gave me any names of anyone you spoke to about this. He said he was about to return my phone call the day I called him back. I got in touch with him by simply calling Merchantville NJ and asking who to talk to about a death certificate of a man who apparently died there 87 years ago by the name of George Crump. Then by coincidence I got his father, Merchantville's judge, on the phone because he has the same name.

These people aren't your sources, they're a source of information for this kind of thing for anyone who feels like calling them! What in the world do you think you are some kind of reporter or policeman doing some criminal investigation here? We don't need your help anyway. We know where to find Crump's death certificate and we'll get it.

All we're asking you is a simple question on golf architecture and PVGC and why you think it's significant to the membership of that course that the man who owned and built the course  may have died of a gunshot wound 87 years ago---something you said on this site was a fact and that you could prove.

A simple question you refuse to answer on here that has nothing to do with any source at all, just why you have an opinion.

Frankly, what you should do is call the clerk of Merchantville back and explain to him why you said something he denies telling you. That's what he'd like you to do. And he isn't hiding from you or me or anyone else or trying to protect his identity. If someone wants to ask about the death certificate of a resident of Merchantville who died there he's the man to talk to.

[wsmorrison]

"Actually, as of 1912, vs. now the pound was worth about 60-65 times more than then now.. So 72 quid was about $4300-$4600, still not $10,000 but much closer.. "

But Noel, if 72 quid in 1912 is equivalent to $4500 or so today, how does this relate to what 72 quid was in relation to $10,000 in 1912 and what the $10,000 back then is equivalent to today?

Without knowing currencies like you do, I would certainly say that the $10,000 figure is not accurate.  

[TEPaul]

I had absolutely no idea an English pound in 1912 was 60-65 times a dollar! Maybe Crump paid the going rate to Colt in 1912 then. Afterall, Colt did spend a solid week or even two on site.

But still, $10,000 around 1912 was a little less than 1/4 of the cost to construct the entire course at Merion East in 1911-1912!

[NAF]

Wayne/Tom-

I believe although I'd have to verify that the pound was rebased sometime in the war years.  The $ has never been rebased--if you remember the UK almost went bust during WWII and also sterling was the main unit of exchange (the global reserve currency during the teens), not the $.

Remember back in those days, things were gold based.  Also the Federal Reserve who is the implicit power behind the $ since Nixon took us off the gold standard did not exist until 1913.

Anyhoo, I have to check.

But perhaps you are right, $10,000 is a lot of greenbacks at that time from a purchasing power parity basis.  Also, you must remember during the roaring 20s on Wall Street, ten grand wasnt that much money though for the Gatsby generation.  Inflation has probably eroded about 95% of the value of the $ from the teens.

[wsmorrison]

In 1913 you could easily buy a nice estate home with several acres in suburban Philadelphia for $10,000.  But I guess for what Fazio, Nicklaus and others charge today for their design services, the same applies; and they don't stay on site for a week straight  

[TEPaul]

The only apparent source of the rumored $10,000 payment from Crump to Colt reputedly came from Crump's friend Joe Bole forty years after the fact. As far as I know there's no accounting at PVGC or from Crump's account or his estate that a fee like that was paid. And as far as I can tell no one from Colt's side has ever been able to verify it. That would seem sort of odd since someone on here just stated it's apparently verifiable that Colt charged Camberley Heath 72 quid 9 shillings for design work on that course.

Of course just the fact of this post of mine alone is probably going to get the two ultra-Colt advocates on here screaming bloody murder that this is just another example of the on-going PVGC or "Philadelphia School" campaign to glorify George Crump and the expense of Harry Colt!  

Of course asking our two ultra-Colt advocates to prove that $10,000 payment to Colt is not something I'm going to do because asking them to prove something is not working very well to date! All I seem to get so far in that attempt is that ducks are not all in a row yet or that I'm making one of them ill by revealing his sources and injuring innocent bystanders!  

[Paul_Turner]

On the sauce a bit early today TEP?

We know of a payment to Colt at CHeath and so therefore we should know his fee at PV.  That's great logic  I have to rely on graft for my research.  An entire company's records didn't luckily fall in my lap...unlike for some here

[TEPaul]

"We know of a payment to Colt at CHeath and so therefore we should know his fee at PV.  That's great logic   I have to rely on graft for my research.  An entire company's records didn't luckily fall in my lap...unlike for some here>

Paul:

Don't know that I was referring to just you. Looks like somebody else reported that payment about Camberley Heath. One never knows what kind of information may come back on GOLFCLUBATLAS over the World Wide Internet and from whom, or would you be the only one for anyone to contact about Colt? Do you think Crump paid Colt $10,000 for PVGC? Does that sound to you like a reasonable sum for an architect's fee in 1913 for a guy for one week, never to return---for some shared lines on a topo map and a booklet of hole drawings? What even was a reasonable assumption of the cost to construct a good golf course in that year? Piper and Oakley asked that question of Hugh Wilson and he reported to them that Merion East cost $45,000 to construct.

[T_MacWood]

TE
What was the going rate for architects of Colt's stature in 1913?

Merion cost $45,000? How much do you estimate PV cost?

Regarding Crump's payment and Colt's lone visit, do you think Crump foresaw Arch Duke Ferdinand getting knocked off?

[TEPaul]

“TE
What was the going rate for architects of Colt's stature in 1913?”

That’s a good question, and one I was hoping the two Colt experts on here (Tom MacWood and Paul Turner) could help with about Colt himself in and around 1913. But it was an RT (Russell Talley?) who reported on here that Colt’s fee was 72 quid 9 shillings in 1912 for Camberley Heath so I guess that gives us some idea. But I don’t know what Colt did for Camberley Heath, do you? Did he route and design the course and oversee the course’s construction for the duration or did he help someone route it and leave a hole by hole booklet behind after being there for one week never to return, as he did at PVGC?

”Merion cost $45,000? How much do you estimate PV cost?”

I should clarify that. Hugh or Alan Wilson reported to Piper and Oakley that Merion East cost approximately $45,000 to actually construct the golf course but of course that pertained only to the so-called “initial construction phase" from app April 1911 until Sept 1911 when the course was seeded and left for one year to grow in before opening for play in Sept 1912. Merion East was changed architecturally a good deal in the next 20 years before it was considered to be what they were looking for---after which time it has been little changed architecturally.

How much do I estimate PVGC cost to construct? That’s pretty hard to say since no one has really compiled that estimate that I know of.  I might estimate it cost something like $300,000 over its app ten year construction phase as there’re a few reports that estimate Crump may’ve put more than $250,000 of his own money into the course but that probably included the cost of land in two purchases--and it may also include the buildings such as the clubhouse and dorm house. And frankly, that fact alone, the ten-year construction phase, is a great example of what I’ve been trying to explain to you and Paul Turner for about two years now that neither of you seem to get or appreciate or are willing to acknowledge! That indicates to me what Crump’s personal efforts on that golf course, particularly architecturally, were all about. This is one of the clearest indications he was doing what HE wanted to do there architecturally, altering things constantly and taking his sweet time finishing the golf course by constant change, and when he died suddenly in 1918 he still hadn't finished the golf course architecturally! If Crump had wanted to simply construct that golf course architecturally to Harry Colt’s routing or hole by hole design plan he probably could’ve done that in about six months and then opened the TOTAL course for play as Merion East had done two years previous. But he didn’t do that, he opened it in stages and the course didn't open all 18 holes until 1922.

And following its initial opening Merion East basically took 20 years to complete. This is obviously something you fail to understand correctly about the two centerpieces of the Philadelphia School of Architecture---PVGC and Merion East. This is one of the reasons I don’t think you analyze some architecture very well!!

”Regarding Crump's payment and Colt's lone visit, do you think Crump foresaw Arch Duke Ferdinand getting knocked off?”

Wow!! I’m getting a bit concerned about you Tom! I wouldn’t even want to hazard a guess where you think you’re going now with a question like that!

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