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TEPaul

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2005, 09:39:39 PM »
"Tom
I agree with most of your analysis.  However the essential routing of 12 and 15 are as Colt drew.  It's difficult to discern the 12th fully, the length and direction of the hole is correct as Colt drew.  But the green orientation may well be different; the booklet would shed light.  Colt's and appears to be less certain for the 12th and 13th holes, it's more of a stick diagram than a fully fleshed hole like the others.  Again the booklet would shed a lot of light."

Paul:

I know you're able to discern what's on that second routing map because of the distinctions that've been with the significance of the blue and red lines in the last few years but with all due respect to you what you just said about holes #12-#15, particularly #13 and #14 aren't even close to a semi-accurate analysis! The tee for #12 is probably 75 yards behind the way it was built, the green is straight out, not to the left and the blue penciled hole is over 400 yards rather than the low 300s as it was built. The Colt tee to #13 is probably 100 yards from where the 13 tee was built and the green is about 200 yards from where it was built. The entire Colt 14th hole is about 250 yards from where it was built and the tee on #15 is about 175 yards from where it was built. If you call that "the essential routing is as Colt drew" (on those holes), you're either nuts or know little about routing a golf course.

"In 1913, wouldn't Colt's 15th would still be a three shotter, even without the lake carry?"

Maybe it was---if you take about 175 yard off a 570 yard hole you get a hole of around 400 yards uphill so you tell me whether that would've been a par 4 or 5 in 1913.

"Look closer at the stick map (zoom in).  The holes are all numbered and sequenced; a full 18.  The current 8th is not shown at all.  The 8th hole labelled on the stick map is a hole with a green site at the current 6th."

Since I can't see the numbers on those holes in that first routing if what you say is true about a green site at #6 being labeled #8 that could shed some important additional light on what Crump was doing or had done before Colt ever got there. One can see that Crump's original # 5 was a short par 3 going to the hillside next to the intersection going to the clubhouse. From there one can see his 6th hole going over the ridge past #9 green to a greensite to the left of present #10. From there #7 goes to a green site near John Ott's house. From there one can see a hole going to the present #6 green. Obviously that would've meant the present 7th hole would probably have been the 9th! But we do know that Tillinghast had described the 6th hole as a par 5 going over the ridge to a green site where the present 6th green is. He described that hole in American Golfer before Colt first arrived at PVGC. This tells me how much Crump was changing things before Colt arrived and to what point he may've gotten to in his mind. I'll get back to you on that 6th green site labeled as #8. That could tell a lot of what was going on with that first stick routing and by whom.


Paul_Turner

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Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2005, 11:17:09 PM »
Tom

You're seeing things re: the 12th! Colt has a circle for the green in about the right place.  I agree the tee is further back, 75 yards is a bit of a stretch though.  But again the hole is routed over the same terrain!

Since when is the carry at 15th 175 yards?  It's more like 120, max 130-140.  Other than the carry, the 15th is as Colt routed.  And you cannot deny this.  450 yards uphill in 1913 = 3 shotter as defined in the Carr article.

Where did I mention 13 and 14 above?? You're seeing things I didn't even write!

The holes are all clearly numbered on the stick plan.

Tillie's par 5 6th doesn't necessarily have to be as where you describe.  He could be decribing that hole going up towards the 9th/10th.  He doesn't state whether it's going right or left.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:34:06 PM by Paul_Turner »
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TEPaul

Re:Routing - Is it hard to get it wrong ?
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2005, 11:41:13 PM »
"Tom
You're seeing things re: the 12th green!! Colt has a circle for the green in about the right place."

Paul:

If the green on the second routing plan where Colt drew it is in the same place as it is now then Crump had to have moved the fairway well to the right. The reason is the green as it is today is to left of the fairway. The hole you can see on the second routing plan is straight with the fairway dead in line to the green as drawn, nothing like the way the hole is.

"Since when is the carry at 15th 175 yards?  It's more like 120, max 140.  Other than the carry, the 15th is as Colt routed.  And you cannot deny this."

If you look at where Colt drew the tee on #15 it's at least 175 yards from the original tee as built---and longer from the present tips (probably 235 yards from where the new tip tee will be).

"The holes are all clearly numbered on the stick plan."

That's nice because I can't identify them on the first stick routing. If you help me with what they say and where it can have some significance in figuring out where Crump may've been in all this before, during and after Colt got there.

You shouldn't be so silent about what I just told you about what I know and have known for decades regarding the feeling of numerous members about what Colt did at PVGC and their feeling about that. You and Tom MacWood seem to think they're all trying to minimize Colt to glorify Crump. Nothing of the kind. Many are intriqued by Harry Colt and his participation at PVGC. I'd be glad to introduce you to a great number of them who've always felt that way. I'd actually encourage it because if you tell me again I have my head in the sand about the way PVGC members feel about Crump and Colt I'm only going to continue to tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about because you just don't know them as I do. All you two Colt ultra-advocates have done is read those two history books which do minimize Colt for all the reasons I just gave and have many times before.  
 
As for Tom MacWood and his understanding of the membership of PVGC and what they think, I'm sorry to have to say again that he's never even been there and has probably never even met a PVGC member. In that vein he has no earthly idea what they think about either Crump or Colt, in my opinion. From many of the things he's said on this web-site he doesn't even seem to think that a golf club's membership or what they feel about their course has much significance at all. He seems to feel that they're not much more than an obstacle and a detriment to the preservation of what he considers great art.
 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:49:58 PM by TEPaul »