NGLA #4 - Best Redan ?

[TEPaul]

"Is this to suggest that the original Flynn tee was further right than todays tee? How would that improve the hole? Does all of this suggest that #7 is not an actual Redan?"

Jim:

No, the Flynn tee to that hole was about 7-10 steps to the left of the tee they use and have for decades. The Flynn tee is still visible though. It had a tree on it but that's been removed and I hope they're thinking of restoring that Flynn tee. Just a mere 7-10 steps left would make the right to left slope on that green act as much more of a bolster than it is now from the old Macdonald/Raynor tee.

Although we can't exactly prove it yet we think Flynn may've rebuilt that redan green right where the old one was. There're various pieces of evidence that indicate that, although I wouldn't call that proof. There's probably a way to determine if he did or didn't though and that would be to take core samples of the green and its surrounds.

[JESII]

There's probably a way to determine if he did or didn't though and that would be to take core samples of the green and its surrounds.

Do you think they would mind if we went up there with our excavation kits and started digging?

Playing from a tee 7-10 steps left would enhance the right to left theme at the expense of the front to back slope, but would it impinge on the 4th tee? It seems there is probably about 25 yards between the two tees.

It has always seemed to me that over the green was the best place to miss if you had the choice, I don't remember any of the bunkers it seems are referrenced in the ideal redan design. Am I right about the lack of bunkers? does this reduce the quality of this rendition in peoples eyes?

[TEPaul]

"Do you think they would mind if we went up there with our excavation kits and started digging?"

Jim:

It's not hard to do and actually Mark Michaud, the unbelievbly good super is a bit of an expert at it. He came from Pebble and he did it there. You just take a long clear tube about 1/3 of the diameter of a cup and hammer it way on down in there, pull it out and voila you have a complete strata layer of how things were built and evolved! Mark has a whole bunch of those clear tubes from Pebble he showed us.

"Playing from a tee 7-10 steps left would enhance the right to left theme at the expense of the front to back slope, but would it impinge on the 4th tee? It seems there is probably about 25 yards between the two tees."

I looked at it closely last time there. It looks a little dicey using the original Flynn tee on #7 and the tees on #4. In reality though someone would have to half shank a drive coming out of #4 tee to hit someone on the restored tee on #7.

"It has always seemed to me that over the green was the best place to miss if you had the choice, I don't remember any of the bunkers it seems are referrenced in the ideal redan design. Am I right about the lack of bunkers? does this reduce the quality of this rendition in peoples eyes?"

Flynn did a ton of his own type of "redan" renditions all over the place. Almost always, though, he used slightly different bunkering schemes from the completely traditional redan and he almost always minimized the effective playability of the run-up approach shot by steepening the fairway in front of his greens. Good examples of that are Shinnecock's #7, Philly C.C's #7 and HVGC's #3. Why did he do that to the approaches? We think he was simply beginning to try to architecturally demand more of the aerial game from golfers.

 

[JESII]

"Flynn did a ton of his own type of "redan" renditions all over the place. Almost always, though, he used slightly different bunkering schemes from the completely traditional redan and he almost always minimized the effective playability of the run-up approach shot by steepening the fairway in front of his greens. Good examples of that are Shinnecock's #7, Philly C.C's #7 and HVGC's #3. Why did he do that to the approaches? We think he was simply beginning to try to architecturally demand more of the aerial game from golfers."

Not to be too picky, but is every par 3 in the 170 - 200 range with a right to left sloping green and a bunker guarding the front left corner a Redan?

I have always heard of HVCC #3 being a Redan and only recently the same about PCC #7, but neither of them posses the "tableland" element that seems quite important to the concept as a whole.

[TEPaul]

"I have always heard of HVCC #3 being a Redan and only recently the same about PCC #7, but neither of them posses the "tableland" element that seems quite important to the concept as a whole."

Jim:

That's true. Flynn did all kinds of par 3s that had various types of redan effects or playabilities but nothing I've ever seen that had a real tableland effect except perhaps Shinnecock's #7 but then again that one does not have the traditional fairway approach "kicker" of the traditional redan and the Macdonald/Raynor redans. Anything but actually.

Flynn did downhill redan renditions like Lehigh's #3, that's a reverse redan, and he didn't seem to do many that ran away and down in the rear like Shinnecock's #7. Linc Roden claims Flynn's original #3 HVGC ran down and away in the rear but the club brought the back up as they did on HVGC's #2 that also ran down and away right to left in the rear. Joe Kirkwood took care of #2 green by raising the left rear and with that rear left "scalloping" which certainly doesn't look like William Flynn.

[Dave Kemp]

As you can see I am a newbie and up until a week ago I didn't even know what a redan was.  I have been building a collection of books on different golf subjects and stumbled on this site recently. I enjoy the various discussions and thought I would register and try to contribute.

Interesting observation by MacKenzie in The Spirit of St. Andrews regarding The Redan at North Berwick:

"The original hole can hardly be considered perfect, as it is too blind and there are too many bunkers which have no meaning, but the ideas embodied in the hole are excellent, and these ideas give an architect great opportunities of making interesting holes."

[Sean_A]

I think the blind element of NB's Redan is an essential part of the hole.  I have played the hole perhaps 20 times, very rarely could I fire at the flag unless the hole was playing into the wind.  Downwind, it takes a very good golfer to shoot at the flag and hold the green.  The toughest wind is off the left (the sea).  You are forced to aim somewhere over the left bunker.  I agree that the green is flat near the back (which is where I have nearly always seen the pin), but it still takes a good up and down to save par if you go long.  However, I think any up and down is a good up and down.

Ciao

Sean

[George_Bahto]

Patrick:

The Knoll’s Redan in its total design, to me, is not very good. Features of it are fine, the overall appearance of the approach (except the tee is too high ......... Banks started this “high tee” thing after he went on his own. I doubt, no I’m positive, Raynor would have allowed it).

The kick in shoulder is excellent and is very similar to the one pictured below (that’s the one David Carroll refers to - this approach is quite good)  I’m not sure the green surface is exceptional but will be re-checking it in person soon.

Also at The Knoll (#3) there is a great mound running thru the green that adds to the putting.

I guess if “we” (at the Knoll) .... rather I should say “they” !! .... if they would get the greens up to speed the breaks in the green would advance from “subtlely difficult” to read, to incredibly difficult to putt on. It’ll happen one day.

What I do not like Pat is the bunker is not deep enough. I’ll get it deeper when I get there but the surrounding terrain will not allow it to be as deep as most of us would like to see.


photo #4 - Annapolis Roads



I agree with the beginning of Tom Paul’s list but will only keep it to 5:

1. NGLA - head and shoulder above the rest

2T. Piping Rock
2T. Somerset Hills
both different but, again to me, equally brilliant renditions

4. The Links (reverse) ..... from what I’ve read and what I’ve heard from people who have played it
5. North Berwick

[ForkaB]

Here's my list of the top five Elvises:

1.  Elvis impersonator #1 (tradition points count...)
2.  Elvis impersonator #173
3.  Elvis impersonator #97,853
4.  Elvis impersonator #4,282
5.  Elvis

[JESII]

Rich

Post #33 is certainly in need of at least one of the available 'smiley face' icons, don't you think.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

That photo above in your post of #4 Annapolis Roads, is, as you say, a good example (from what I can see of it in the photo) of a hole that looks like it might play pretty well as a redan but its architectural aesthetics as far as looking like it might naturally belong where it is looks pretty poor to me.

The manufacturing of it in that apparently flat terrain makes it look like it just artificially "pops out of the ground". The most attractive aspect of the redan at NGLA and also Piping Rock is the high side of both appear to be an extension of a natural ridge that continues to just flow on down with the natural right to left slope of both those redans.

With the Somerset Hills redan it appears Tillinghast compensated very well for perhaps a lack of a ridge line or "tilted tabletop" on that hole by constructing that massive mound or smallish hill to the right of the green to at least make it look like it was there and to serve the unique purpose of an "inside the green surface" kicker as that large mound flows down into the green.

[ForkaB]

Rich

Post #33 is certainly in need of at least one of the available 'smiley face' icons, don't you think.

Jim

I would have done so, but it might have confused Tommy Paul, so I thought that I would leave well enough alone......

Rich

[JESII]

Good thinking Rich, it is Monday morning afterall.

[TEPaul]

"Jim
I would have done so, but it might have confused Tommy Paul,"

Rich:

Lack of those emoticoms (Smileys) is the best way to go if humor is what you're attempting, at least that's precisely what Dan Kelly, our resident wordsmith and editor, told me a number of years ago on here. Humor, he said, if it's any good doesn't need obvious enhancing or reminding by those "smileys" that it's there.

However, on this website, I'm not so sure. The level of humor or let's say the understanding of humor or even the fact it's even there in some of these posts is pretty damn low, unfortunately. I'd bet of the 1500 contributors to this site about 1495 of them still think Pat Mucci and I actually hate each other.

[JESII]

I'd bet of the 1500 contributors to this site about 1495 of them still think Pat Mucci and I actually hate each other.

Tom,

Don't you think that line needs an emoticon at least?

[ForkaB]

The other 5 of us KNOW that TEP and Mucci hate each other (insert approriate emoticon here).

[JESII]

 

[TEPaul]

I hate those little no-neck monsters, Jim! Last night I had a nightmare that a whole bevy of them were trying to sexually attack me--I had to get up at 3:27am and there wasn't anything to do except get on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com with some other bloke on the other side of the world.

[JESII]

Tom

At least tell me it was   and not .

  seems much more accomodating  .

[TEPaul]

God, that's awful---definitely the stuff nightmares are made of! I don't know what I'm going to do now other than try and stay awake for the rest of my life but I may not be able to do that for more than 2-3 weeks tops!

[gookin]

TEP,

I have not had the pleasure to play most on your list. Are all 12 really a better example of a redan than #6 at Fox Chapel?  I would be interested in why we did not make your list. I promise I will not take it personally. I ask the question with my obvious bias understood.

[TEPaul]

David:

You know that's an excellent question! I probably didn't include #6 Fox Chapel only because I've never played your restoration redan. Last time I actually played Fox Chapel was in the State Am the time before the last one. When was that---a dozen years ago? I remember that hole from back then but not that well. How much different do you figure the playability of the post restoration redan is from the pre-restoration one? Seems to me the front left to right bank is much bigger and steeper. If so I'd say it's similar to what Brian did with the redan at Mountain Lake by really enhancing and steepening the bank and the green space on it. I did watch the State am's play it last year though and it seems to play pretty neat. I just wish those rains hadn't come because I know the course was really firm and fast before the tournament started and your redan with that big steep back must be really interesting and fun to play when it's firm and fast.

I should've included yours on the list instead of some of the others.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

It's interesting that you rank # 2 at Somerset so high.

For some reason, I'm not that big a fan of it.
It looks great, but, I find it lacking from the perspective of playability.  Maybe, it's just me, or my game, or lack of it.

With respect to # 3 at The Knoll, while you're deepening the bunker, would it not be easy to reduce the elevation of the tee ?

[George_Bahto]

Pat: You really can't see the surface of the green from 3-tee at The Knoll, so it works fine as far as that goes. To me, the bunker depth is the problem.

It's a very easy up and down from there and a plce you would rather "miss" to especially if the pin is on the bunker side of the mound in the green (you don't want to put from the rear of the green over the mound).

I love the 2nd at Somerset Hills.

Is it that we're used to playing the Macdonald type Redan??


.....  and you, you redanman!  shame on "yo' face"  !!

gb

[gookin]

TEP,

To answer your question, #6 at Fox Chapel ,a reverse redan, was restored in three ways; 1) the bank has been restored from rough to green and/or fringe allowing the ball to be intentionally played off the bank per the original intent, 2) the bunker faces were made very steep (close to 60 degrees) increasing the penalty for being short or long and 3) multiple large oak trees have been removed from around the green which brings the wind much more into play.  A main difference with this redan from the many that have been discussed here is that the green is elevated from the tee. This allows the front of the green to act like a false front to a lofted spinning shot.  It is also difficult to "know" where the pin is because much of the putting surface is blind from the tee. This blind characteristic (despite being able to walk by the green while playing #5) adds an element of uncertainty for the player when standing on the tee. All of these factors will require the player to "commit" to one of a multiple of options to successfully get their ball on the green.

I don't know how any one shot hole could better represent the principles of classic architectural design.