NGLA #4 - Best Redan ?

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

I often read (GCA posts, magazines,...) NGLA #4 is the best redan hole. But can you explain why it is better than others (his model at North Berwick, ...) ?  

For those who don't think that NGLA #4 is the best redan, where is the best redan hole and why is it the better for you ?

Thanks.

[Top100Guru]

The best Redan for me is at Mountain Lake, mainly because I had a Hole-In-One on it!!!

[Sam Sikes]

Personally, I think the redan at camargo, 14 or 15, is atleast as good as 4 at National.  Although, wind is certainly more of a factor at national, and if it is downwind, which it usually is, the green is nearly impossible to hold.  Furthermore, at Camargo, you can actually see your ball rolling toward the hole or the back of the green.  I dont remember that being the case at National.  I could be wrong though

[Steve Lapper]

No one redan is the best! Period.

Several redans come to mind that are worthy peers with NGLA are Somerset Hills #2 and Shinnecock #7. They are both pure and very real full redans.
 Unfortunately, I've not yet played Camargo or Mountain Lake but have heard their redans are indeed pure and wonderful (as reiterated in the above posts).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sam Sikes,

Unless you're taller then Mike Sweeney, you can't see the ball on the left 2/3 of the green, the high right shoulder is about the only visual you'll get.

To discount or disregard the wind is sacrilegious.
It's an integral part of playing the hole.

I've never played a BAD redan, but NGLA is at the top of my list.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   Do you consider the Yale version to be a redan? If you do, what elements are there that make you think that?

[Mark Brown]

I like Raynor's Redan at Mountain Lake just south of Orlando. Silva did a good renovation job. I think it's No. 11.

[Doug Siebert]

A question for those who have played a wider variety of Redans that I haven't had the pleasure of, particularly NGLA and Shinnecock, but really any of the Redans people here are talking about.

Why do you think these are better than "the" Redan at North Berwick?  I'm a bit surprised no one even mentions that as a candidate.  Is it that inferior to these?  I have played North Berwick's, and it is one heck of a hole.  If there weren't groups behind us, I would have seen if my dad was willing to go back to the tee and play a few more from the tee to try different shots and see how each worked.  In a really big wind, it'd truly be a challenge for any golfer in the world.  What do you see as the improvements or additions that these latter Redans have over the original that make them so superior that North Berwick doesn't even rate a mention here?

[Brian Phillips]

Doug,

Because most people on here have not played the hole enough.

Brian

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Getka,

Yale's version reminds me of the 8th at The Creek, which has a reverse style.

I think one of the key elements in a true redan is the blind nature of the shot.  That element is missing at Yale, The Creek and Shinnecock.

It's the angle of the green, bunker placement and the pitch of the green that could lead one to classify Yale's, The Creek's and others as redans.

Doub Siebert,

North Berwick's is terrific, but, I play NGLA more frequently, hence the familiarity level is heightened.   I don't think anyone ever said that North Berwick's redan was sub-standard.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I don't think the North Berwick Redan is in the same class of, say, Shinnecock's (of the ones you've mentioned which I've played), mainly because the back of the green complex is quite bland. You can safely go through the green and have a relatively straighforward chip back up the hill, which gives you much more room for error in terms of the line you take off of the tee to a back flag. As such, the green at Shinnecock really makes you use all of its contours (even in normal, non-2004 US Open conditions) to play a decent approach, sometimes just to keep the ball on the green, which to me is the point of the Redan. At North Berwick, the 15th feels more like a shot you simply hit at the flag, wherever it is on the green, with the wonderful slingshot effect often absent.

Patrick - isn't the 7th at Shinnecock more or less blind, at least in that the green is raised above you and you can't see all of the green or the bottom of the flagstick? Or perhaps my memory is failing...

Cheers,
Darren

[Jimmy Muratt]

One of the bests Redans that hasn't been mentioned yet is #3 at Piping Rock.  It's visually intimidating and difficult to pull the correct club as it plays slightly uphill and the green surface is completely blind.  

Here's a pic from the GCA profile:


Another of my favorite Redans, yet somewhat different is #16 at Kingsley.  The green is very difficult to hold if you do not start the ball far enough right, but the hillside allows you ample room.  There is no back right bunker like a true Redan, but it's a wonderful modified version.

[Punchbowl]

NGLA's is the best...

Personally don't think the Redan at Shinnecock is a great hole...it is simply a hard hole...

[JESII]

I have been under the impression that a Redan was a copy (converted for golf usage) of a defensive military installation or position.
Is this true? Assuming it is true, wouldn't the 'best' Redan be the one that best represented the same defensive characteristics sought by the military commanders who found and utilized that type of terrain in battle? Now for the million dollar question, what are those characteristics?

From memory I would suggest; a visual obstruction, plateaued, and and sloping away to the left target. what else should be thought of?

[TEPaul]

Of the redans I can recall playing my order of preference would be something like;

1. NGLA
2. Piping Rock
3. Somerset Hills
4. The Links (reverse)
5. North Berwick
6. Westhampton
7. Creek (reverse)
8. Mountain Lake
9. Inniscrone (only if the tee was where Hanse wanted it)
10. Pacific Dunes
11. HVGC
12. Philly C.C.

[JESII]

TEP

Do I not see Shinnecock #7?

Oversight or intentional?

[George Pazin]

I have been under the impression that a Redan was a copy (converted for golf usage) of a defensive military installation or position.
Is this true? Assuming it is true, wouldn't the 'best' Redan be the one that best represented the same defensive characteristics sought by the military commanders who found and utilized that type of terrain in battle? Now for the million dollar question, what are those characteristics?

From memory I would suggest; a visual obstruction, plateaued, and and sloping away to the left target. what else should be thought of?

From George Bahto's Feature Interview on this site (one of the best & probably my favorite):

What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play. To identify the best renditions, I would have to agree with this site's 'Discussion Group.' National's 4th and Piping Rock's 3rd are the most outstanding they built. Macdonald stated: 'the strategy of the Redan cannot be improved on.' The Redan strategy is used by nearly all architects - even as the green complex on par-4 holes. Redan traces its origin to the 15th at North Berwick where Davie Strath first built the hole while revising and formalizing the course. Sir David Baird, a former British Guards officer and a member at North Berwick, remarked that the escarpment Strath used at the 15th hole reminded him of the fortification he had stormed in Crimea 20 years before - the hole was immediately christened the 'Redan'.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, haven't Tom P & Wayne M indicated that Shinnecock's 7th originally had a different tee that is less redan-like?

And, finally, how unbelievable is the reasoning behind Gil not being able to use the proper tee for his redan at Inniscrone? Ignorance at its best.

[TEPaul]

JES II;

If you look up the military definition of a redan you will see that the golf hole couldn't really represent that but what I do feel a good redan should be is slightly above the tee since any good military man of any sanity in the old days definitely staked out the highest and most defensible ground he could find for obvious reasons.

And that's precisely why I've always like the redan at Piping Rock so much---you almost have to hit up to the "kicker" off the putting surface on the right to filter the ball properly right to left and onto the green and down and away. At the best redans I know the ball will disappear from view at this point!

The best redans are holes where the "instant gratification" of knowing where your ball actually ended up is delayed until you get up there. Most probably don't think of that but that's one of the best of the oldtime features about the perfect redan shot.

GeorgeP:

The original Flynn tee for Shinnecock's redan makes the hole play much better than the tee they've used for decades which was the old Macdonald/Raynor tee for that hole. Even the club doesn't know why the Flynn tee was obsoleted but in my mind it may've been because they may've added tee length to #3 and perhaps just thought the Flynn tee was a bit too dangerous for balls coming off #3 tee.

[david h. carroll]

Steamshovel Banks #4 at Annapolis Roads GC & Silva's 17th at Elkridge top my list

Annapolis Roads is Redan on steroids--tall, huge, severe, penal and long.  Silva's is much more subtle with the green set on a fantastic diagonal thereby making the disatnce judgement that much more difficult

[Jim Sweeney]

I get the feeling that the 9th at Fairfield is greatly underappreciated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

How do you rank the redan at The Knoll ?

[TEPaul]

"I get the feeling that the 9th at Fairfield is greatly underappreciated."

Jim:

From everything I've heard about it I'd probably put it way up near the top of my list--but unfortunately I've never seen it.

[Gerry B]

I would add the following to the list of good Redan Holes

7 at Chicago Golf Club - love the green complex
7 at Forsgate Banks Course -(Reverse Redan)
17 at Mid Ocean

[Scott_Burroughs]

Of the ones I've played, in order:

LACC (N) (Reverse)
Riviera
Pacific Dunes
Huntingdon Valley
Shoreacres
Yeamans Hall
Yale
Whippoorwill

Inniscrone would be probably after PD if the tees were in the desired spot.

[JESII]

George Pazin

I must have come across that statement from Sir David Baird at some point and time had changed the story in my mind. Thank you, I actually read those same comments from MacDonald in Geoff Shackleford's book on the "Golden Age...".

Tom,

You say

"GeorgeP:

The original Flynn tee for Shinnecock's redan makes the hole play much better than the tee they've used for decades which was the old Macdonald/Raynor tee for that hole."

Is this to suggest that the original Flynn tee was further right than todays tee? How would that improve the hole? Does all of this suggest that #7 is not an actual Redan?

Jim