Torrey Pines, Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers

[George Pazin]

One of the more intriguing comments that I felt Tom D made in The Confidential Guide... was in regards to Torrey Pines. He said something to the effect of "One thing you learn here is that when cliffs are too big, you can't get close to them," with the implication to me being that the "better" land is left unused and the courses seems almost bland by comparison. (Kudos to Rees for moving a few greens closer to the cliffs, btw.)

Yet Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers seem to be perched on cliffs that are much higher. (In fact, CK is the one Tom D course that I have zero desire to play, because I am relatively certain that my fear of height would preclude enjoying the golf. I literally had trouble swinging the club at Wolf Creek on some of those high perched tees - and for those of you who would say I always have trouble swinging the club, well, you're right! )

Why have KC and CK received praise while Torrey is generally not highly thought of by the cognescenti? Is the non-cliff land that much better? Could someone in fact build a superior course on TP's land, a real 8 or 9 type course?

Is TP underrated? KC & CK overrated?

Or are they just plain different?

[Jay Cox]

I think the answer must be "they are just different," for two reasons:

1) The holes, and the greens especially, are further removed from the cliffs at Torrey.  The question is "why," architectural malpractice or some genuine ecological reason?  I believe it may be the latter:  That part of Southern Cali is prone to coastal erosion, if I'm not mistaken, and as a result holes perched against the cliffs and -- even more so -- the ravines coming in off the ocean might be less safe than similar holes at Kauri or Kidnappers.  Then again, it could just be lazy architecture, or a product of the course having been built with older earthmoving techniques.

2) (more importantly) The rest of the architecture just isn't particularly inspired.  I haven't played Kauri or Kidnappers, but from the pictures both seem to have drama independent of scenary.  Torrey South doesn't do much to hold your attention besides present a pretty picture and (esp. after the redesign) be extremely hard.  Even if you couldn't put holes closer to the cliffs, I think you could still put a much better golf course on Torrey's land.


Very interesting question.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Hey George-o,

A couple of things.  Both Kidnappers and Kauri are not the stuff of 57th-floor Manhattan hotel balconies.  Both places are better described as expansive than precipitous.  If you suffer from acrophobia I think you would fear Torrey or Bandon more, as their drop-offs are more sheer.  At Kauri and 'Nappers, it is more a sense that half the Pacific Ocean and most of New Zealand are below the golf courses rather than below your toe tips.

Kauri is designed by David Harmon not the Doak boys.

JC  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
As someone that has tried to walk down the slopes at Torrey Pines with a surfboard in hopes of finding a quicker way to get down to Black's Beach so I could catch the "morning glass," I can tell you that paticular moment is probably one of the closest moments where I almost met my maker. I was lucky to make it back up when I got about a 1/3rd of the way down!

Those cliffs at Torrey Pines are water-carved sand stone, and very unstable in some spots. You can grab what you think is a solid point and it just crumbles to pieces. Yet, you can also see areas which look like they are ready to crumble, yet are more then stable.  Personally, I think Billy Bell was right not to take a lot of holes out there near those edges--who knows what could have happened if he did!  For Rees to take the holes that he did, was also risky. And yes, they make more interesting or at least--more dramatic golf holes. Still, I think the original course was better despite its warts.

[Tim_Weiman]

George,

Most of Cape Kidnappers is well away from the cliffs. In fact, much of it is well inland and you might have a problem only on a couple of the bridges.

Torrey isn't close to CK in my mind, either in terms of the land itself or the architecture.

Can't say I'd want to go back to CK year after year (like I would at Barnbougle or St Andrews Beach), but the place is pretty amazing and worth a "once in a lifetime", if not more.