Unsolved mysteries

[Paul_Turner]

There is now overwhelming evidence that PVGC was giving too much credit to Colt??  Where was that credit, precisely?

This thread is winning the award for being the nuttiest in GCA history (but it is intriguing!).  Deleted posts...?  Is it such a sensitive issue?  It's so long ago, I can't imagine anyone would feel insulted by any of this.

[TEPaul]

"I have a really good book on the architectural history of Maidstone that I think you'd find fascinating.  I'd be happy to bring it along Tuesday night if you'd like to borrow it."

MikeC:

Thanks, I'd like to see that. I read some Maidstone history book up there one time when staying in someone's house but it didn't have much at all worthwhile about architecture. I bet the one you have is by Shinnecock's David Goddard, a very good researcher we've had a lot to do with over Shinnecock.

The holes on the property of those mega-masions where Raynor's, huh? That seems a bit strange to me. I can't see how they'd have been part of the main course over there. They must have been part of the little lady's and children's course that's on the other side of the road past Maidstone. I think it's only nine holes or maybe a few more. Have you ever played that lady's or kid's course? It's pretty cool really.

I also don't see how there could be much doubt that at least the 2nd green on the big course was Raynor----that's one fine iteration of the Road hole green minus the Road Hole bunker with a more tradtional and much bigger diagonal bunker scheme along the left of the green.

That shot to a back left pin on #2 always gave me more problems than any other approach on the course. I'd hit what I thought were good shots and much of the time they wouldn't make the diagonal carry. That is one really long green but being on that excellent diagonal it just doesn't look like it's long.

[T_MacWood]

Par-3 18th at Hob Nob Hill--140 yards


The 16th at HNH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Read Executive order # 18 more carefully, especially item # 4.

Let's wait a few weeks and see how this turns out.

[Robert Thompson]

Interesting, that since you can't libel the dead, whether Crump killed himself and under what circumstances are all quite fascinating questions. After all, he did create the world's best golf course.
Strange to see deleted posts -- I saw them when they were first put up and didn't see a lot different from the earlier thread that ended up arguing about Crump's demise.
Anyway, I'm keen on getting the pros and cons on this -- since there are two clear sides to this. Whether Colt got his due or not is secondary -- I'm more interested, at this point, in Crump. Has anyone done a strong historical study on him (noting that I haven't seen Finnegan's book).
Club histories, regardless of who writes them, aren't particularly helpful in these cases, since they are typically little more than a PR exercise whereby the club pats members and its executive on the back.
So, can someone lay out the for and against arguments on Crump and his death?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul;

Yes, the book I have is Goddard's.  And, he clearly believes the 2nd green is Raynor's, as well.  The old holes you see on the left are a mix of what is left of what is left of an early iteration of the course, including some of the Raynor holes.  I haven't played it, unfortunately, but it did look really cool.

Without re-reading it at the moment, I'm at a loss for all of the details, but I'm sure he's painstaking enough once you begin to dig into it.  It's an architectural afficianado's wet dream.  

Tom MacWood;

Those pictures are awesome.

[TEPaul]

"So, can someone lay out the for and against arguments on Crump and his death?"

Robert:

I'm game to do it although I'd sure like to know what the problem was with the posts that were on here yesterday and why they got deleted. I'd like to know who deleted them and what their reasons were. Tom MacWood seems to know as he did write this yestereday;

"TEP, Wayne & Pat;
You should thank the deleter."

What does that mean? I guess Tom MacWood knows but he doesn't seem to be interested in saying on here. Tom MacWood did say either on here or to us (Wayne and me) that he didn't want to get the guy in Merchantville NJ in trouble for revealing something Tom said he told him was illegal to tell. But Wayne and I spoke to up to four people down there including the guy Tom MacWood spoke to and not one of them said there was anything illegal about talking about it. They all did say, though, the Crump's DC is not in Merchantville NJ township offices as Tom MacWood said the guy told him it was. Or maybe that guy according to Tom MacW said he'd seen Crump's DC and it said he died from a gunshot wound. But when Wayne and I talked to the same guy he said he never told Tom MacWood or anyone else anything like that. He said all he's ever told anyone is that there is no DC for Crump in Merchantville and that he's never seen a DC for Crump. The guy's father, the Merchantville judge said the same thing. So did the major. And there was another guy whose name Tom MacWood gave me (who he hadn't spoken to) that I called and he (member of PVGC) said he'd never heard that Crump committed suicide but he did tell me that his grandfather bought Crump's house in Merchantville after Crump died. The mayor of PV whose a good friend of mine and who's lived at PV for about 35 years told me he'd always heard Crump died in his cottage at PVGC.

But if I have my two posts and if you want to see my version of what happened with Tom MacWood's contact with Merchantville NJ and our contact with Merchantville NJ recently in an attempt ot find Crump's DC and how he died I'd be glad to put it back on here. (it's sort of a longer more involved version of this post)

Just say the word.

[TEPaul]

Robert:

Tom MacWood also said today on this thread;

"TE
In my opinion how Crump died is significant, you and Wayne were the ones who claimed it wasn't important..."

Tom MacWood has told me why he thinks the circumstances of Crump's death are significant but at this point there's no reason to put words in his mouth. If he mentioned this morniing he thinks it's significnant I'd think it's not too much to ask of him to explain in detail why he feels that way.

And if he does, Wayne and I'd be more than happy to explain why we think it's not important---at least not important in the context of what the club and Crump's friends felt about him when he died and what they felt he did for PVGC architecturally and otherwise during its multi-year creation during his lifetime.

The fact is the man died suddenly and it was a shock to his friends that he died so suddenly. The manner in which he died has nothing to do with what they felt about his massive contribution at PVGC, in our opinion. Everyone who knew him said he died of poison to the brain from tooth problems. It's just beyond our imagination why or even how all his friends could've or woud've gotten together instantly following his death and dreamed up the poison to the brain story to cover up the fact he shot himself. To us not only does that make no sense whatsoever, we think it would've been virtually impossible to do. But maybe Tom MacWood's research has found someone who was with Crump when he died or found him and just whisked his body away and dreamed up the story that he died of poison to the brain rather than a gunshot wound.

In my opinion, this whole thing in Tom MacWood's mind basically has to do with the minimizing of Harry Colt's part in the creation of PVGC. I think he's just looking for some reason to say the club and Crump's friends glorified Crump's part in PVGC unrealistically for the purpose of minimizing what Colt did there.

But what I really can't figure out is why he thinks that would've been different because he blew his brains out rather than dying suddenly from poison to the brain.

But let Tom MacWood tell you himself in his own words.

[frank_D]

What are some of the remaining unsolved mysteries in the history of golf architecture?

brother Tom MacWood

where JOHN BREDEMUS gold medals are ? maybe buried on one of his course ?

[T_MacWood]

Frank
That's a good question. An old caddie, who knew Bredemus, said that he kept them in an old cigar box and showed them occasionally. Evidently they weren't with him when he died. I suspect they were sold, stolen or lost at some point. Didn't he spend some time south of the border?

[TEPaul]

Robert Thompson:

It doesn't look like Tom MacWood has much interest in explaining the details of why he thinks the manner in which Crump died is so significant.

I can't say I blame him!

[frank_D]

Didn't he spend some time south of the border?

brother Tom MacWood

i don't know - unfortunately my knowledge of BREDEMUS is limited primarily to harvey penick's writings of him and that he graduated princeton as the second golf architect from there

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Forget about waiting to get your ducks in a row with your so-called confidential sources trying to prove Crump committed suicide. Even if you can prove that what do you think is significant about the manner in which he died as it relates to PVGC, it's creation or its architecture?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

If Crump did commit suicide what significance do you think that fact has compared to if he died of poison from an abscess to how the club, his friends and others perceive what he did there with the course's creation, it's architecture and his part in it---or Harry Colt's part in it?

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I think Tom MacWood's ducks keep stepping out of line and he's waiting for them to straighten out.  In this case I think it is like waiting for Quasimodo to straighten out--it ain't gonna happen  

Gathering raw material is a great strength of Tom MacWood and many of us on here are thankful for his efforts.  In general, I think the interpretation should be left up to others.

[TEPaul]

"Gathering raw material is a great strength of Tom MacWood and many of us on here are thankful for his efforts. In general, I think the interpretation should be left up to others."

Wayne:

I'd surely agree with that now that he seems to be avoiding any interpretation at all on here despite stating he thinks a Crump suicide is of significance. At least it would be nice to know to what he thinks it's significant. As far as gathering raw material, I certainly agree he's provided some very impressive material. However, to date, I don't see that the raw material he's provided on a possible Crump suicide is impressive at all, particularly since his first "duck" has totally denied ever having said that he could prove a thing about a Crump suicide. It'll be interesting to see what this next "duck" he says he has will say on that score.

[SPDB]

One of the great unsolved mysteries:

Why frankD refers to everyone as "brother [Fill in the Blank]?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Would you care to tell us why you think a possible Crump suicide is significant?

Paul Turner:

Would you care to tell us why you think a possible Crump suicide is significant, or failing that would you care to tell us why you think Tom MacWood thinks a possible Crump suicide is significant?

[paul cowley]

 I hate to interrupt, but if one had the time to research the original designer of a 9 hole course near Cooperstown, probably early 1900's, I would be appreciative......it was built adjacent to the mineral spas in Sharon Springs NY and called [maybe ]the Pavillion course.....now, back to the DC cronicles

[wsmorrison]

Paul,
I'm in Cooperstown a couple times a year.  I know an historian in town, I'll call him and see what information might be available.  I'll get back to you if anything turns up.

The only courses I was able to find in the area (not including Leatherstocking) with a quick search are:

Canajoharie CC, 1936 18-hole
Cobbleskill G and CC, 1928 9-hole
Otsego GC, 1894
Meadow Links, 18-hole

[Thomas MacWood]

Mark B was kind enough to dig up this old thread on the MacKenzie at TJ.

Another unsolved mystery is whatever happened to William Watson. He was at Belevedere (MI) in the late 20s or early 30s, and then seemed to fall off the face of the earth. Where did he go?

Whatever became of Herbert Barker is another mystery.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Who the heck was HCC Tippet?

Why is someone associated with Walton Heath, Rye, the Florida Land Boom, the Long Island of Gatsby, Carl Fisher, and Maj Bruce Shand (father to Camilla Parker Bowles) essentially a blank in the written record, beyond a few mentions here and there?

[Rich Goodale]

Wasn't HCC Tippet the uncle of the guy that Oswald shot in the Dallas Movie theatre on Nov. 22, 1963?  I smell a grassy knoll somewhere.....

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, I do have him remodeling Daley Plaza CC in the Fall of 1963. He was called in to add "MacKenzie Mounds."

[Thomas MacWood]

How did Hugh Wilson meet his end?