[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Morrison,

I have absolutely no idea of what you're talking about or referencing.

TEPaul and I are in harmony on this issue.

I also don't understand why my posts were deleted.
I take it back, I do understand.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I should have used a smiley.  I know that we're on the exact same page on the Crump issue.  I was making light that you once jokingly cautioned me against agreeing with Tom Paul.  Likewise, he jokingly chastises me when I agree with you.  That is all I was referring to.  

When it comes to the evidence presented by Tom MacWood on this issue, it never materializes.  This is why Tom and I looked into the matter ourselves.  Something didn't seem right and we thought it best to do our own investigation rather than taking his on faith.  Our findings and the versions told by the men of Merchantville are very much at odds with Tom MacWood's version.  This is disconcerting and warrants a measure of proof that Tom MacWood fails to provide.  Why?  I have my guesses.  

What I fail to understand is why our posts were deleted.  In no way did we (you, Tom Paul and I) step out of bounds.  I think Tom MacWood did and he needs to be called on it.  When our posts were deleted, his allegation remained but was subsequently removed when I made it an issue.  The kind of standards we were holding MacWood to out should stand in my opinion and he needs to know there are people that carefully consider statements and verify them when it seems necessary to do so.  I am certain you agree and, as you said, there is harmony among the three of us.

[Steve Sayers]

What happened between 02/1916 and 01/1919 to have LuLu go from AWT to DR?

American Golfer  February 1916

The nine-hole course of the Lulu Temple which was laid out only a short time ago, is not altogether satisfactory to the players, who have decided that it will be necessary not only to reconstruct the present course, but to extend it to eighteen holes. Mr. A. W. Tillinghast has been engaged to furnish the plans.


American Golfer  January 1919

The LuLu Temple Country Club announces that the club will build a new course, using the ground on which their nine holes are situated and some additional land on the other side of the road. The plans were prepared by Donald Ross. A large clubhouse will be erected also.

[T_MacWood]

Tom Dunne
Paul Turner has a better feel for Colt's Belgium and Dutch work. What I know two or three courses at Knocke in Belgium. Ulvertson, Kennemer, Hilversum, Utrecht, Eindhoven and Haagsche in Holland.

[TEPaul]

"TEP, Pat and Wayne:
You should thank the deleter"

Tom MacW:

Oh really? Would you care to explain why or is this going to be another cryptic goose chase like the recent denoument in Merchantville NJ?

[Joe Hancock]

This thread has had so many deletions and edits....I have no idea what is going on.

Is this a case where the cat and mouse game would be better played in the private message arena?

It is hard to glean anything when the threads are altered significantly every few minutes.....

[TEPaul]

I'm with you Joe, I have no idea why these deletions should have taken place. Maybe you should ask Tom MacWood why they should have been deleted, maybe he knows---after all he did say;

"TEP. Wayne and Pat;
You should thank the deleter."

I, for one, certainly don't know why but apparently he does, or thinks he does. All I can say is it's disappointing to me that the posts about Crump's death were deleted. I think that was interesting and important information about the #1 course in the world, particularly since MacWood has stated on here that the circumstances of his death inspired the glorification of Crump that served to minimize what Colt did at PVGC. This thread is about unsolved mysteries, and the issue of Crump's death MacWood mentioned on this thread again after stating on here previously he proved how Crump died. Wayne and I do not think he proved that at all, and we've spoken with the person he did, after he did as well as others down there in Merchantville and I was ony trying to state why I think Tom MacWood is wrong about what he said he proved about Crump's death.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

With New Jersey Death Certificates a matter of public record,
disclosure of information contained on them is not improper, let alone illegal.

I don't understand your desire and other's desire to have posts deleted if nothing improper occured.

It seems strange, especially when you're such an ardent researcher and a champion of efforts to discover all there is to know about a subject.

I'm puzzled, but this wouldn't be the first time.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I have no idea who deleted those posts or why? Death certificates are no longer a matter of public record in NJ...I think it was decree #18 that changed the treatment of vital statistics in NJ. As TE and Wayne of have said on numerous occasions, its not important how Crump died. Whats the big deal?

[TEPaul]

Oh Boy! Tom, How about I just call the guy in Merchantville NJ back and ask him if he thinks it's illegal to make public what's on NJ death certificates? Would you accept what he tells me or are you going to keep telling us you just can't imagine why he'd tell you it's illegal and then tell us it's not?

"As TE and Wayne of have said on numerous occasions, its not important how Crump died. Whats the big deal?"

The frightening thing to contemplate is if you're actually serious with that remark. If you don't think it's important how Crump died or what the big deal is I suppose the obvious question is why did you bother to call the man in Merchantville NJ from Ohio about the circumstances behind Crump's death in the first place?

[T_MacWood]

TE
As per an Executive Order from the Governor's office, January 1, 2003, the following must be adhered to in order to obtain a Vital Statistic record:


Anyone requesting a Vital Statistic must satisfy the following information-


Exact name as it appears on the Vital Statistic

Exact place where event occurred

Exact date of the event

Mother's maiden name of party requesting a Vital Statistic form

Father's name of party requesting a Vital Statistic form



Moreover, the only people entitled to obtain a Vital Statistic form are as follows-


Subject person of the Vital Statistic

Authorized family members (parent, legal guardian, spouse, child, grandchild or sibling

of legal age

Funeral directors

Court ordered requests

Government agencies for emergent circumstances

[TEPaul]

Tom:

Maybe you should address that to Pat. He's from NJ and he deals with DC's in his profession. I think he could probably tell you a thing or two about information regarding DCs' in NJ, why the law changed, when it changed and what period it covers and why!  

But don't worry about what's public information about DCs from 1918 in NJ. It's just across the river from me and one of these days soon I'm going down there to look for Crump's DC just for your benefit. About three people who would know because they're the only ones to talk to about DCs in Merchantville NJ have already told me and Wayne that Crump's DC isn't in Merchantville NJ because he didn't die there. But don't worry, I'm sure I'll find Crump's DC one of these days soon, probably in the locale that has to do with where PVGC is.

If Crump's DC happens to say something other than "death by gunshot wound", however, I have no doubt at all that you'll just continue to tell me you have no idea why that guy in Merchantville NJ told you on the phone what you say he did.

Why was it again you called that guy in Merchantville NJ if you think that the circumstances behind Crump's death are no big deal? Why was it again that you're convinced that PVGC and all Crump's friends launched into that campaign to alter the circumstances of Crump's death because he blew his brains out??  

[T_MacWood]

TE
In my opinion how Crump died is significant, you and Wayne were the ones who claimed it wasn't important...reread my post.

Don't waste your time...Crump died in Merchantville.

[Bill_McBride]

Another excellent Vernon Macan: Columbia-Edgewater CC in Portland, 1925.  Bob Cupp has done some renovation work, aiming to restore original bunker depths.  Otherwise it's the original.

[TEPaul]

"TE
In my opinion how Crump died is significant..."

And you've seen his death certificate which says he shot himself, right Tom?

[Steve Curry]

I am consulting for a back yard course in Connecticut and was told by the caretaker that not far away there exists the remnants of an 18-hole course.  This course had been maintained for quite some time by a country gentlemen.  These sorts of mysteries fascinate me.  Sometime I intend to do a little research and try to "track" the course down.  A little lost links research.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve Curry;

Does the course in question have a name?  My Connecticut research is somewhat limited, but there's a chance I have it.

[Steve Curry]

Mike,

Not that I know of yet.  It would be in Salisbury or Taconic Connecticut though.

Steve

[wsmorrison]

"Don't waste your time...Crump died in Merchantville."

You waste our time if you have proof and don't demonstrate it.  The truth is all that matters, there is no agenda fwith any of us that question you.  If you can substantiate it with archival records, do so.  If not, please stop making these definitive statements.

By the way, Crump's death is significant--to his family and friends.  It is a personal matter that you choose to bring up trying to defend the non-connected idea that the circumstance of his death has something to do with a distortion of the architectural record and the perceived slight to Colt.  This despite the overwhelming evidence that points to the club mistakenly given too much credit to Colt.  I do not believe that the manner of Crump's death is significant to the understanding of architectural history and attribution.  You evidently do.  

However he died, and it was tragically young--not unlike others in the district such as Hugh Wilson, Frederick Taylor, William Flynn, Howard Toomey and others.  The story that fascinates me most is not the death itself, but how the club continued on and the manner in which the course was completed.  Crump was beloved and his friends banded together to see the dream completed in a spirit of collaboration that honored the founder and his friendships.  

I think Crump is easily one of the most fascinating gentlemen in Philadelphia golf.  Certainly stories of his death have been circulating for many years.  If the truth is knowable, then it should be known.  Whether you are right or wrong, it should not be disseminated in the manner you have chosen.  I find it difficult to believe these men cared about attribution and the historical record.  Yet you would believe they conspired to glorify him beyond reality.  They were gentlemen golfers and shared a love for the sport and for their companions.  Leave it at that while you tilt at your windmills.

[TEPaul]

"This course had been maintained for quite some time by a country gentlemen.  These sorts of mysteries fascinate me.  Sometime I intend to do a little research and try to "track" the course down.  A little lost links research."

Steve:

The closest thing I've seen to that is this sort of semi-unsolved mystery in Northern Florida, on a spooky old island across from the Naval Base in Jacksonville.

The club was called the Ribault Club and the remaining photographs and historic material show a club and a golf course (probably nine holes originally) with a membership that consisted a people like the Vanderbilts and such. Most may have come by the old railroad of Flagler's but many came to it by private yacht.

It's been sitting out there for years going back to nature but recently the US Park Service and local interests decided to restore the clubhouse because it's so architecturally interesting and significant. It doesn't seem that much of any use will be made of it though.

As for the golf course many say it was Ross but no one seems to be able to prove it---certainly not the people at the US Park Service who know a great deal about the history of the clubhouse. The vestiges of the old holes are out there to be seen but their under an act that will allow what once was to regenerate back to nature.

It's kind of spooky to see but kinda cool too----sort of like stepping straight back in time!  

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't call this an unsolved mystery but some of the old original holes of Maidstone are pretty interesting. To the left of the club as you drive in are some mega-mega mansions and out there on a few of those ultra millionare's properties are the vestiges of some of the original old holes of Maidstone.

The old biarritz at Shinnecock is sort of weird now too. Last time I went out to look at it they had some sand and other present course material dumped on and around it. It's behind the present Shinnecock maintenance buildings.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Those old holes out to the left on the drive in are vestiges of Raynor's work at Maidstone.  

Much of the original course (prior to Willie Park) is over towards 17, 3, etc.

I have a really good book on the architectural history of Maidstone that I think you'd find fascinating.  I'd be happy to bring it along Tuesday night if you'd like to borrow it.

[T_MacWood]

Steve
That course in Salisbury was Hob Nob Hill designed by Devereux Emmet for a gentleman by the name of I. Kent Fulton. I believe it was the last golf course designed by Emmet; it looked to be very interesting based on the photos I've seen.

[Mike_Cirba]

Hob Nob Hill...

This site never ceases to amaze me.  

And, what a great name for a golf course.  

[Steve Curry]

Tom,

I'll give up my research now!  

But what I can do for a lot less effort than you is go find the place.  

I would be interested to the photos you have and would/will share mine if and when I get there.  The caretaker says that features are still able to be discerned.

Any references to the quality or character of the course?

Steve

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