[Thomas MacWood]

Yes, all of these these courses were modified over time, some dramatically, but to say that the "art" of designing and bulding (could I even say "laying out"?) of inland golf courses was only discovered in the 20th century in England is a bridge too far, academically speaking.
 

Was inland golf discovered in England? I'm not sure anyone has tried to make that case. How about inland golf was perfected in England? That seems reasonable to me.

Scotland has never been known for its inland courses, what happened? Is it a matter of geography, the fact that Scotland's major cities are nearer the sea; geology, less than perfect inland sites; or history, unlike England, Scotland already had plenty of established golf courses, mostly links, and did not need to bring golf to inland population centers?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom

Interesting thought experiment. You would want to compare factors in each area. English presence and Scottish absence might indicate factors that drove inland development.

You do have a very good point about perfecting. In particular, I think what you are really looking at are the formation of *clubs*, and the factors that drove that, rather than the building of courses.

These factors would be macroeconomic and attached to the (positive) energy crisis of the late 1800s into early 1900s, not only wealth and technology (trains) but even changing perceptions of time (it was seen as speeding up, making "pauses" more valued).

Mark

For in England every course was a product of a club, yes?  Perhaps Royal Blackheath was the exception that proved the rule.

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

My sense, broadly, is that the early years of golf in Scotland (pre-guttie) were nurtured by a very wealthy set of individuals, based at elitist clubs like the Honourable Co., Prestwick, Royal Burgess, Royal Abderdeen, and the R & A. Much of (really, all of...) Scotland's wealth at the time was based around ports and communities with access to water -- Ediburgh, Glasgow, the Ayrshire coast, Aberdeen, and Fife. Scotland, historically a much poorer country than England, relied on these port cities for much of its economic development pre-1850, and golf as a leisure pursuit was centered in its early stages among golf clubs comprised of wealthy individuals. (GCA poster Tony Muldoon has suggested a variation of golf called the Short game was played by "commoners" during this early-stage development of golf, but I'm not convinced it resembles the game as we know it today.)

Wealth in England was more broadly distributed throughout the country, and thus so were inland golf courses. True, some of the earliest and best-known English golf clubs were set on links ground -- Westward Ho!. Royal Liverpool,  Royal St. George's -- but some very good inland courses also developed in England pre-1900: Notts and Ganton, to name two. Shortly after the turn of the century, of course, came the development of premier inland courses like Sunningdale, Walton Health and Woodhall Spa.

You'd be hard-pressed to find any comparable inland courses in Scotland developed pre-1905.

[Peter Pallotta]

Not much of a contribution to what should be a really good thread, but it's always seemed to me that the sensible old Scots didn't pick linksland because it was good for golf but because it wasn't good for anything else, like growing food for example. I imagine it took money and ambition and a certain established class for people to begin thinking about inland courses.  Maybe that's when the game started becoming the Game...and when golf architecture started becoming a profession (even for amateurs) meant to fill an increasing, and increasingly defined, need/want.

Peter     

[James Boon]

There seem to be plenty of early examples of inland courses in England. I can't realy offer anything new with regards to why but I did just spend a few moments thinking of good inland courses in Scotland:

Loch Lomond
Gleneagles (Kings)
Gleneagles (Queens)
Blairgowrie (Rosemount)
Downfield
Boat of Garten
Ladybank

All but Loch Lomond and Ladybank have a connection with James Braid? Perhaps it was his experience at Walton Heath that allowed him to bring inland golf to Scotland once inland golf was already well established in England?

[Sean_A]

Yes, all of these these courses were modified over time, some dramatically, but to say that the "art" of designing and bulding (could I even say "laying out"?) of inland golf courses was only discovered in the 20th century in England is a bridge too far, academically speaking.
 

Was inland golf discovered in England? I'm not sure anyone has tried to make that case. How about inland golf was perfected in England? That seems reasonable to me.

Scotland has never been known for its inland courses, what happened? Is it a matter of geography, the fact that Scotland's major cities are nearer the sea; geology, less than perfect inland sites; or history, unlike England, Scotland already had plenty of established golf courses, mostly links, and did not need to bring golf to inland population centers?

Tommy Mac

You are right with the population.  It centers around the coast in Scotland.  With this being the case there wasn't much need to develop inland golf when there was plenty of seaside golf about where most of the people lived.  Additionally, nearly all of the very best inland courses in Scotland weren't really developed until after golf had migrated from Scotland.  Rich says there was plenty of good golf, but I am talking about the very good golf - the sort of stuff people travel to play. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Yes, Sean, and the flip side also is true, i.e. since London was so far from the sea (and linksland) they had no choice but to find some sort of similar soil conditions if they wanted to play this new game at a course which filled them with any self-respect.  It is not surprising that so many of the greatest Englsih courses were built near the one of their "second cities" (Liverpool) which was near some great linksland.

You are also right that most old inland Scottish courses were and are good but not great.  Again, one obvious reason for this is that there was no need for great courses near the population centres in the early part of the 20th cnetury as they already existed,--n East Lothin (Edinburgh), Ayrshire (Glasgow), Grampian (Aberdeen) and St. Andrews/Angus (Dundee).  AS good as say Lanark or Killermont or Duddingston might be, how could they ever compete with tghe great links courses.  They were and are, village courses for village people, to paraphsase the League of Gentlemen.....

[Tony_Muldoon]

(GCA poster Tony Muldoon has suggested a variation of golf called the Short game was played by "commoners" during this early-stage development of golf, but I'm not convinced it resembles the game as we know it today.)

Thank you Phil, just when I was convinced I was being beastly to a deceased equine, I discover someone does read my posts. What's more a post where someone can disagree without being disagreeable.

I go to bed a contented man tonight.

[Marty Bonnar]

Robert Price's excellent 'Scotland's Golf Courses' has a very telling series of maps which chart the development of the 600ish courses over the 300 yearsish of their history.

Development definitely followed the growth of the railways. Early on, the English middle classes had been following the example of their royals and 'summering' in Scotland, golfing, hunting, shooting and fishing.

When the Surrey heathlands were opened up, they quickly abandoned us for good golf nearer to home!

Re Scotland's population: try to find a nigh-time satellite pic of our fine wee country. You'll soon notice all that bright light in the 'Central Belt'. I'd guess maybe 80% of our 5 million live with in an hour or so of Glasgow AND Edinburgh.

FBD.
(A Scot)

[Phil McDade]

(GCA poster Tony Muldoon has suggested a variation of golf called the Short game was played by "commoners" during this early-stage development of golf, but I'm not convinced it resembles the game as we know it today.)

Thank you Phil, just when I was convinced I was being beastly to a deceased equine, I discover someone does read my posts. What's more a post where someone can disagree without being disagreeable.

I go to bed a contented man tonight.

Tony:

Sleep well.

I read an essay somewhere that suggested the primary difference between the early Dutch game of "kolven" and even games that vaguely resembled it -- and the game developed in Scotland we know as golf -- was that the Scottish game focused on getting the object into a hole. If I recall, your previous post about the Short game suggested it was played with the intent of the object hitting something (a door perhaps, or tree, or something inanimate) vs. the game of golf, played by the early clubs, which centered on getting the ball into a hole.

Thoughts? I do need to read that book you recommended; is it the same one Martin references?

[Sean_A]

Yes, Sean, and the flip side also is true, i.e. since London was so far from the sea (and linksland) they had no choice but to find some sort of similar soil conditions if they wanted to play this new game at a course which filled them with any self-respect.  It is not surprising that so many of the greatest Englsih courses were built near the one of their "second cities" (Liverpool) which was near some great linksland.

You are also right that most old inland Scottish courses were and are good but not great.  Again, one obvious reason for this is that there was no need for great courses near the population centres in the early part of the 20th cnetury as they already existed,--n East Lothin (Edinburgh), Ayrshire (Glasgow), Grampian (Aberdeen) and St. Andrews/Angus (Dundee).  AS good as say Lanark or Killermont or Duddingston might be, how could they ever compete with tghe great links courses.  They were and are, village courses for village people, to paraphsase the League of Gentlemen.....

Rich

Its interesting you select Killermont as not competing with the venerable links.  Like many of the overhyped courses in other parts of the world due to age etc, Glasgow GC fits right in.  A nice little course, but in no way worth a mention except for how old the club is.  Ironically, Glasgow Gailes is one of the most disappointing links I have ever seen.  Maybe its the club!

I do think that American golf deserves co-credit with English golf for the perfection (or near as possible considering its not links) of inland courses.  Its true that the timelines were slightly different in terms of creating many quality courses, but the climate and soil conditions which had to be overcome were no small task. 

FBD

How many people were living in the Glasgow-Edinburgh belt back in the day?  My impression is that this was farmland with relatively few people living there. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great memory Phil.

"Golf Scotlands Game2 by Davi Hamilton The Partick Press.


Rumours of a sequel"Inland Golf, Scotlands Game" , apparently remain just that.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I read somewhere that early golf in Scotland was a winter game. The lairds tended to their farms in summer and in winter traveled to Edinburgh or Glasgow to trade and go clubbing.

So for inland Scottish golf: when the toffs were there they were too busy and when they were not busy they weren't there. Perhaps the weather would have been too bad anyway.

Extrapolating, agrarian economies tend to produce large wealth imbalances, the impact of which would be not a lot of golfers. And as previously stated, these golfers would be "golfers" only in winter and on the coasts.

And as the Scottish economy industriallized, it did so on the coasts.

This would have an impact as well.

In contrast, England industrialized in the 1800s, and did so in the interior of the country. Industrialization produced greater numbers of potential club men, and furthermore the rhythms and availability of their lives to golf (some factories hewed to the agricultural rhythm but many did not), coupled with the climate, would have produced a large class of golfers, available across the year, in the interior.

Sorry for the half formed argument - any of this make sense?

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Mark

Golf was very much a winter game in England, but I'm not sure about Scotland.  That is why they hold the President's Putter in January at Rye.  In the summer, any gentleman worth his salt and with decent hand-eye coordination was playing cricket over a string of seamless 5-day matches rather than venturing onto the links, or the heathlands, or whatever......

Rich

[Marty Bonnar]

Sean,
I'm not sure how the population has grown. There must be some figures on the interweb somewhere.

Here's that nighttime sat pic I thought I had seen:



As you can see - lots of coastal development with the 'Glasburgh' corridor very well delineated.

FBD.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I read somewhere that early golf in Scotland was a winter game. Mark

Mark this is very much the argument in Scotland's Gift and also works by Stirk and Henderson.  The links grass was shorter and there was no farming to be done.  the records of early club meetings were all in the winter period.

[TEPaul]

"Yes, Sean, and the flip side also is true, i.e. since London was so far from the sea (and linksland) they had no choice but to find some sort of similar soil conditions if they wanted to play this new game at a course which filled them with any self-respect.  It is not surprising that so many of the greatest Englsih courses were built near the one of their "second cities" (Liverpool) which was near some great linksland."


Rich:

I'm pretty surprised at many of the posts on this thread. I though most on here understood the various reasons the golf was so much better on the so-called linksland and why the golf when it first emigrated out of Scotland to inland sites was basically so poor until a type of terrain and particularly soil conditions were finally found inland that was so similar to the links soil and what made it so good for two types of grass that were so good for golf. Apparently most do not seem to understand that. I'm surprised.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I think you maybe having an Emily Letella moment.

[Sean_A]

"Yes, Sean, and the flip side also is true, i.e. since London was so far from the sea (and linksland) they had no choice but to find some sort of similar soil conditions if they wanted to play this new game at a course which filled them with any self-respect.  It is not surprising that so many of the greatest Englsih courses were built near the one of their "second cities" (Liverpool) which was near some great linksland."


Rich:

I'm pretty surprised at many of the posts on this thread. I though most on here understood the various reasons the golf was so much better on the so-called linksland and why the golf when it first emigrated out of Scotland to inland sites was basically so poor until a type of terrain and particularly soil conditions were finally found inland that was so similar to the links soil and what made it so good for two types of grass that were so good for golf. Apparently most do not seem to understand that. I'm surprised.

Very heavy sigh.

Ciao

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