Is Tillinghast maybe just slightly overrated?

[Lloyd Bickerton]

Nobody can convince me that Baltusrol Lower or Five Farms is a great course. I agree that Somerset Hills, Winged Foot and Bethpage are true originals in ther best sense of the word but San Francisco GC gets way more credit than it deserves. Does anyone else agree?

[Clark]

While on the subject of Tillinghast, I would be interested to hear any comments from people who have played Alpine CC in NJ as I just played it for the first time recently. It was Tillie's last course in NJ and has some incredibly severe greens (such as the 10th). If they would fire up the chainsaw, it would be terrific.

[John Crowley]

The man who designed Quaker Ridge, Ridgewood, both course at Winged Foot, Somerset Hills, Bethpage, and Baltusrol Upper (not Lower) cannot be overrated!! Who else other than MacKenzie produced so many classy courses? Ross's courses have been changed to death and Thomas was far less prolific.

[John]

I agree that, collectively, Tillie's top 5 or so is right up there with (almost)anyone else's, but what is missing is the element of true greatness. Winged Foot (West)is his best effort, but that doesn't quite make the very short list of the world's great courses (although it is damn close). MacKenzie's number of courses at the top (Cypress, R. Melbourne, Crystal Downs and Augusta National) clearly sets him above the rest, so who is number two? I would nominate C.B. Macdonald (or better yet, the team of Macdonald and Raynor). They have one "great" course to their credit (NGLA) and several that are just below. The amazing aspect is the consistently high quality of their work -- has anyone ever passed up the opportunity to play one of their courses?!? (Unlike the chance to play one of Ross's 56,567 courses.) True, that's largely due to the small number of courses they built, but maybe there's something to be learned there . . .

[jacksson]

I am very impressed with your insight, John Crowley.  What do think about Whistling Straits?  Have you heard anything about WS hosting a major?  My friend Robert says WS may host the British Open.  Do you have any good recommendations on psychiatrists?

[Joel_Stewart]

From 1999.  Thought it might be fun to bring it back.

[JESII]

I admit I am not well played enough to compare the top 5 or 10 of many architects, but in my opinion Winged Foot must be one of the greatest overachievements iwhen considering its finished product in regards to its original site [visual effects(minimal), ground contour (none), natural setting) in the world. Considering there is at least some debate as to whether Winged foot is even his best course I think he has well earned his place as 'one of' the top golf course architects to date.

[Jeff Goldman]

Interesting that nobody mentioned Fenway, which apparently is just an outstanding course, especially after the work done.  Comments Geoff?

Jeff

[Jim Franklin]

I loved San Francisco and am still in love with Five Farms so I do not agree with Lloyd.

Overrated compared to what?

[mark chalfant]

Beyond the very famous ones, Tilly created such fine courses as Five Farms, Brook Hollow,Fenway, New Castle, and much of Newport CC. In addition he designed Golden Valley, a bold and brilliant hillside gem in Minneapolis. I dont think he is overrated  !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lloyd,

I'd disagree with you on both Five Farms and Baltusrol Lower.
Both are excellent golf courses.

Baltusrol Lower played from reasonable tees is a terrific golf course, and I'd be happy to go through the course hole by hole with you.  The same can be said of Five Farms, although I've only played it a limited number of times, whereas, I've played BL close to 100 times.

What has happened, and continues to happen to Baltusrol Lower is that it's altered for the purpose of hosting Major Golf Championships, and many view it solely in the context of its ability to challenge the PGA Tour Pro (read length), while abandoning the perspective relating to the pleasure derived from daily play by members and guests alike.

As to the title of your thread, a simple review of AWT's body of work in the Metro NY area alone would lead one to conclude that his work is far from overrated.  His work was superior, and, has passed the ultimate test, the test of time.

In addition, I don't know of one AWT golf club that is in membership/financial trouble.

[pdrake]

anyone who thinks AWT is overated is a few cards short of a full deck..........as said before, look at his work in NYC alone.......that would be a resume ANY architect would treasure!

And it may be me, I love Winged Foot's courses, but I enjoy playing Quaker and Fenway on a day in, day out basis more.

Give me a AWT course anyday!

[Gerry B]

Disagree on Five Farms - has some great holes and fabulolus greens.
SFGC - I just played it - was magnificent -even though 3 holes on the back 9 are not Tilly Holes - I thought the course had some outstanding framed holes and bunkering. Have not played Fenway but heard it is outstanding.

[johnk]

Is Tillinghast maybe just slightly overrated?

NO.

If anything, he's heavily under-rated when you consider his
work and the fact that outside this website, you could spend all day asking average golfers who he was, what he did, or what he's known for, and you'd get a full day of blank stares and bad guesses.

[TEPaul]

Over-rated by whom?

There are a few Tillinghast courses in Northeastern Pa that are not exactly up to some of his greater ones, that's for sure but they were probably never meant to be, by him or anyone else. Courses like Wyoming Valley.