[A_Clay_Man]

Tommy- I'll bet the stars are woo wooing the fact that you took a dump there.

Grant it 'Marvel' was a relative term. As compared to other mechanical and engineering wonders, it is as Dick states ok.

[THuckaby2]

This is all pretty funny.

OF COURSE it's all "hokey" - this is Las Vegas, remember?  Oh, I really believed that my shoes were going in George Bush's locker, right next to "his" fishing poles... (insert as much sarcasm here as can be mustered).

That is not the point, which is, that the people Mr. Wynn wants to impress, and wants to have spend more money at the tables, MAY WELL believe it, and even if they don't, may enjoy the "show"... The idea is to present a continuation out in the fresh air of the world of privilige these high rollers are used to... and you cannot deny that with the limo pickup, the tight security, the very nice but not fawning treatment one gets coupled with the understated clubhouse, Mr. Wynn succeeds mightilty.  He didn't get where he is by accident.

So complain about this if you will... To me, it was so obviously overblown and hokey that I just enjoyed it, kinda like a Disneyland ride... or do you want me to comment on how the ships inside the Pirates of the Caribbean ride really aren't correct for the proper historical time period? There's this thing called "sense of humor" and another called "suspension of disbelief"....

Gentlemen, the golf course succeeds on all levels.  It succeeds in extending the privileges high rollers are used to at the hotels out into the fresh air, as is Mr. Wynn's intent.  It succeeds in creating incredible movement of land and a forest oasis where once there was barren scrub desert.  And finally, it succeeds in creating a decent "test of golf" that even the ultimate connoiseur of such, Mr. Ward, puts in the top 75 in the country.

I think Tom Doak assessed this course perfectly correctly.  But hey, being in the minority in this group seems to be my normal status!

As far as it being an engineering marvel, well, it's not the Golden Gate Bridge or Hoover Dam, after all!  In terms of golf course construction though, I find "marvel" to be the proper word.  Look at the desert around it, and then look inside the oasis.  If that's not a marvel, well... I want to know what is.

And finally, one should not go there expecting his balls to be cleaned and his ass shined, unless that's what he wants... the service isn't that "obvious."  Oh, they treat you well, no doubt... But they also seem to easily identify those who are there to play golf and can do without such things, and cater to them as such with minimum fuss, as places with truly fine service do.

TH

[DTaylor18]

All of these great posts on Shadow Creek, which i've played twice and enjoyed a lot, have got me thinking aobut Cascata, the "new" Shadow Creek, owned by Park Place.  For all the Shadow Creek discussion, I've never met anyone who has played Cascata, the Rees Jones designed very private course that now seems to have similar access as Shadow.  DOes anyone know much aobut it?

[THuckaby2]

DT18:  Casacata has been discussed on here before, and yes, some people have played it (I have not).  Reviews were generally unfavorable, that it fails exactly where SC succeeds... but maybe some one who's been there will weigh in again.

TH

[Larry_Rodgers]

Shadow Creek was the first and will always be noted for the ideas that it brought to "modern design". A far as unlimitted budgets are concerned, the budget was larger than most and those who truly know are not able to speak about it, (lawyer/client stuff). I specifically remember showing up on site one very hot summer morning seeing 8 semis of trees/landscape material, 4 semis of sod and 350 workers to be directed for a the days work. It was a 85 with an expected high around 105 for the day.

Mr. Wynn once again set a standard by which many others will be judged. It is because of his vision and Andy Banfield's dedication that we are able to talk about it at all.

Image 20,000 trees of all varieties most of which are not native to the harsh Las Vegas environment,toss in 100,000 (5-10) gallon container plants, 50 boxcars of pine needles all assembled on an earth moving project set around a theme that every golf hole is to make you feel like you are the only one on the site, "a golf course to yourself". The water features were required for irrigation storage and were developed into some very impressive waterfalls (10,000-15,000 GPM flows).

These were only a few of the objectives Mr. Wynn set for the team. A a direct participant at Shadow Creek I am bias, but I do know Shadow Creek was the best of it's time and will continue to set a standard for which many will be judged.
So how good is it? set aside $500 and a room at an MGM property to judge it for yourself.

[jg7236]

Larry,
Not to be nosey, but who were you working with on the Shadow Creek project, Wadsworth.  How is everything going now, are you still in golf course development business on the west coast.

[Paul Richards]

D:

I have played both Cascata and Shadow Creek.  Cascata is very nice but SC is much better.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I know rating panels are not revered on this discussion site but it is a little hard to ignore 70 or so panelists on a certain rating panel giving SC numbers to consistantly put it in the top 10 of modern courses...  JC

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman, Tommy N, et. al.,

You're incorrect about Shadow Creek.

When Shadow Creek first opened, Only guests approved by Wynn could play.  Subsequently, others had the authority to approve guests.  Additionally, there were invited members, sort of like Huzenga's, Floridian.  Those invited members could invite guests.  One could say that the invited member list was a list of Nationally known names, with their lockers.

It was only after the IRS forced Wynn to "open" up access that appeal to the "masses", as you call them, became a factor.

Shadow Creek was not initially intended to be played by other than a very narrow portion of the gambling and special guest world.  Hence the need to impress one, by the content of the lockers, didn't exist.  Blame the IRS for those changes.

Think of Walter Annenberg and Otto Kahn, and maybe you'll get the picture.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:  thanks for the clarification.

This is just a perception question though, but wouldn't you say that even in the pre-IRS days, a goal of Mr. Wynn's would have been to continue the image of privilege his high-roller guests experienced at the hotel and casino out into the "fresh air", and thus the names on the lockers might still have been used for effect?

I really got the impression in speaking to the people there that this was the case, that the "show" had always been a part of things.

Obviously there is a class of people for whom this has no effect - the people whose names are on the lockers, who truly were "members."  But isn't there also a class of visitors with equal amounts of CASH WILLING TO BE SPENT AT THE CASINOS for whom seeing these names on the lockers would have an effect?

That is how things were explained to me there....

TH

[AARRHHH?]

Good.

[Slag Bandoon]

Imagine 20,000 trees of all varieties most of which are not native to the harsh Las Vegas environment,toss in 100,000 (5-10) gallon container plants, 50 boxcars of pine needles all assembled on an earth moving project set around a theme that every golf hole is to make you feel like you are the only one on the site, "a golf course to yourself". The water features were required for irrigation storage and were developed into some very impressive waterfalls (10,000-15,000 GPM flows).

So how good is it? set aside $500 and a room at an MGM property to judge it for yourself.

 This just illustrates that it was a massive project, not that it is a great golf venue.  

"...20,000 trees... most of which are not native to LV environment."  

  That's not exactly what I'd call an educated or sensitive selection.  

"very impressive waterfalls"   'nuf said.

My perspective on this place is that it is amplified to such a distorted volume that the acoustic charms are mute.  Oh, how I long for the regaling craic in Plockton or Doolin.

[THuckaby2]

Slag:

No course is ever going to be everyone's cup of tea, and from all I read by you and hear about you from those who have had the great fortune to meet you, I feel secure in stating you would not like Shadow Creek.

That doesn't make it any less of an impressive place, nor any less of a fun golf course.  I feel equally secure in saying that if the proper group dragged you down there and made you play it, you would have a great time.

Oddly, that's just about as big a compliment as I can give someone when it comes to golf... but I too am often a very weird cat.

TH

[Slag Bandoon]

Slag:

I feel equally secure in saying that if the proper group dragged you down there and made you play it, you would have a great time.

TH

  Indubitably.   Even moreso if it was an 'improper' group.

 I'm not sure why I'm speaking up on a course I've never played but I just don't get its allure.  Disneyland I get. Hollywood I get.  But in the domain of golf, honor and honesty are paramount.  What does it mean to us when a fantasy style golf course comes along? I think it takes us and our mindset away from golf's higher uniqueness as a sport.

  It is not my 'hi-mindness'.  It is exactly the opposite.  It is my simple mind.  When we get away from the core of golf and its lessons, we get lost in the more.  Let LV have Liberace and Shadow Creek.  I'll dream of Machrihanish.

[THuckaby2]

Ahhh... see, that's the thing, Slag.  Once you're inside the gates, if golf and nothing but golf - for all of the mystery and the allure that golf gives - is your thing, then that's what Shadow Creek will provide.  The clubhouse is small and understated, making those at Cruden Bay, Birkdale, Ballybunion, and most other UK clubs who have built new ones in the last 20 years look garish.  The treatment caters to the individual - when I was there, oh hell yes they gave me "the show", but once on the course, it was all golf, no bs... The course itself lends itself to whatever type of play one wants... serious, whimsical, whatever....

Yes it is manufactured.  Yes it is Las Vegas.  That fact is inescapable both talking about it here and feeling it there.

But it remains one hell of a great place, once you get inside.

I suppose the key here is that one has to have this "suspension of disbelief" that I find so easy... I enjoy The Pirates of the Caribbean ride for what it is, never expecting it to come close to what really exists in the Caribbean, or existed in the times of these buccanneers.

Why can't golf be like this?  I wouldn't want every golf course to be so obviously manufactured, but what's wrong with one that is?  Does it really hurt the game that much?

In any case, this is the key to Shadow Creek - don't expect anything other than what it is.  Don't go there longing for Machrihanish nor comparing to it, as they are as far apart as golf courses can be in this world.  If principles are your thing, check them at the door for this one day.

Take it for what it is, make of it what you want, and it remains one hell of a great golf course.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

A Clayman, Tommy N, et. al.,

You're incorrect about Shadow Creek.

Pat- You never cease to amaze. SInce I made no statements regarding the origins of Shadow Creek and only gave my opinoins,  It is you who are wrong. Or was that a freudian slip that everyone (et al) is always wrong and you the contrary?

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