Shadow Creek

« **on:** January 21, 2003, 07:05:17 AM »

I have a friend who will be getting married this spring at Bellagio - so I will have an opportunity to play Shadow Creek. I know the course is outrageously expensive - but putting that aside, I'd love to get some reactions from those who have played it. Doak is obviously impressed by the course - giving it a "9" on his Doak scale (not an easily earned accolade), and including it in his gourmet section. Is this Fazio's best design? Is there more strategy and design on this course than others by Fazio?

« **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2003, 07:06:50 AM »

Good enough to debut in Golf Digest's Top 10!

« **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2003, 07:19:53 AM »

Honestly, The course is an engineering marvel. All the features are top-notch and the atmosphere is astounding. But, if your looking for strategic design you won't find too much here save for a few spots. Just my opinion, but without options options options how can you have strategy strategy strategy?

« **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2003, 07:26:34 AM »

I may have seen more strategic options on the course than Adam did, but one way or another going there for stategy is like going to Cypress for difficulty - it's not the point. The point of Shadow Creek is that it's an engineering marvel most definitely, it's an oasis of privilege and privacy that has to be seen to be believed, and it's a difficult yet fun golf course.

Seriously, if you have a chance to see it, take it. It is one incredible place and the "experience" is one you won't forget.

Note that I assume $500 is acceptable to you, as you said to put that aside.

TH

« **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2003, 07:57:14 AM »

I believe a consensous have been found. SC is an engineering marvel. David W. has tried to put it in another class and there was a great discussion at to the merits of the course from many views. It is a place of privalege, fantasy( like all of LV) and pure enjoyment but engineering marvel is the right word to describe it. If the 5 bills is not problem it will be the best thing you do in LV that does not involve naked, yes is the only word in my vocabulary, women.

« **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2003, 09:59:02 AM »

It is as good as a course can be that is completely manufactured over a flat desert. It fits Vegas very well. Completely fake, totally over-done but works in the same way the Venetian, Paris and Bellagio work.
CANDYLAND ARCHITECTURE

« **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2003, 10:27:18 AM »

Shadow Creek is so good it's actually considered to be in the top 117 courses that Tom Fazio has ever built! And that's really saying something!!

« **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2003, 10:30:09 AM »

That may sound facetious to some of you but in truth it isn't. Tom Fazio has said a number of times that the best course he ever built is always the next one, so SC probably would come in just under about 117!

« **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2003, 10:38:51 AM »

I don't understand this "engineering marvel" stuff. The Eiffel Tower is an engineering marvel, but I don't want to play golf on it. (Though I guess you could play le Champ de Mars as a short par four that ends at the Tower ticket window. Or maybe tee off from Trocadero...)

Is there a connection between the quality of the engineering at SC and the quality of the golf shots it affords?

Other than the money spent on it, what impresses people about the SC as a golf course? Is there a hole with memorable shot values? SC is a golf course, right?

Bob

« **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2003, 10:54:54 AM »

Bob:

When one looks at the overhead view of the area, sees the featureless scrub desert for miles around in all directions, and sees this oasis where huge amounts of elevation change was created, rock walls were created, very natural rocky creeks were created, a pine forest was created... well... the word "engineering marvel" comes to mind. I really think it's an apt and correct description... and this knowledge is just inescapable as one plays there, I think. You just marvel at what was created....

So at least for me, it's hard to evaluate this golf course WITHOUT that thought creeping in!

That being said, it is a damn fine golf course. There are many memorable shots most definitely.

But it's the engineering marvel part, coupled with the ultra-exclusive nature of the club and the whole "show" of being picked up in a limo, passing the Fort Knox security, etc. that makes it a particulary "special" place. Some can ignore all this and assess the golf course as an entity in a vaccuum... more power to such people. To me, this is all part of the playing of the game at Shadow Creek, and thus to ignore it is silly.

TH

« **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2003, 11:14:05 AM »

Bob:

You've got a darn good point there about Shadow Creek. There's no doubt everyone looks at the course as an engineering marvel since the course was definitely begun from a super "blank canvas" site but what really is so special about the holes on the golf course or the golf course itself? I've never been there so I have no idea but I've never really heard anyone rave about some of the holes. I've heard lots of people, though, rave that they could have done so much and created an overall look so astoundingly different from the areas it's in.

I've always said it looks sort of like North Carolina or something in the Nevada desert and I guess that is remarkable and an engineering marvel of sorts but ultimately your question is what makes the course any better than some course in North Carolina or wherever.

Good point, good question.

« **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2003, 11:29:16 AM »

John M:

I played Shadow Creek a few years ago and I agree from the engineering standpoint the course is definitely a must see. Kudos to TF and Steve Wynn in providing something that will simply amaze you.

From the strategic golf standpoint I can tell you there are other courses of distinction in the greater Vegas area that I would recommend and are worthy challengers to the position that SC holds.

Two of them come quickly to mind. The new Wolf Course at Paiute Resort just north of town and Wolf Creek at Paradise Canyon in nearby Mesquite -- about 70 miles east of town.

Both of the courses I just mentioned are very demanding courses that clearly are artificial (what isn't in the desert?), but are very testing in all phases of the game. Try playing the new Wolf in a standard Vegas wind.

Try also playing Wolf Creek when the wind kicks up and you'll start fretting where the ball is going!

I'd still put Shadow Creek at the top of the list for the all around aspects it provides, but the gap is not as wide as many might think.

redanman:

FYI -- You're absolutely right -- at one time SC was ranked in GD's top ten. Unfortunately, once this happened the powers-that-be initiated the campaign to have non-course related criteria (tradition / walking, etc, etc) added to the mix in calculating rating numbers. Nothing like preserving the status quo.

« **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2003, 11:55:32 AM »

Quote

I've heard lots of people, though, rave that they could have done so much and created an overall look so astoundingly different from the areas it's in.

TEP: see, that's the thing... you get so blown away by what's been created, it's damn near impossible to simply "focus on the golf holes"!

And to me it's truly silly to try. Once again, does one play the game with his eyes closed and with a cold heart? The person who does should not go to the trouble or expense to play Shadow Creek. [To me he'd be just as well off playing virtual golf in a warehouse, but I guess that's not the real point of this thread...]

Matt Ward's assessment of the golf course is spot on (as per usual) as I see it, in any case.

TH

« **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:01:11 PM »

The whole point of Shadow Creek is that it represents a turning point in golf course architecture. It's the first course to take a totally blank canvas and make something special.

It will be looked at from that point in history, and will allow more developers to buy questionable land, and give architect's their heads, which in turn will produce some good and some not so good golf courses.

It will separate the men from the boys. While alot of architects can produce a really fine course from a great site, very very few can do what Fazio did. It takes a great creative mind and hopefully we'll be able to see Doak, Strantz and others get to do courses from blank canvases.

« **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:29:18 PM »

It blows. Any other stupid questions?

-Shaq

« **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:34:34 PM »

Quassi,

A creative mind is a good start, but an unlimited budget doesn't hurt.

We've already seen what C & C can do with a blank slate at Talking Stick and pretty soon we will see what Doak did at Texas Tech.

« **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:34:48 PM »

Wedding in Vegas? Sounds classy.

« **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:41:51 PM »

I'm not inclined to think a blank canvas with an unlimited budget is the best test of a creative mind.

Wouldn't a site with limited features and a limited budget be a much better test?

« **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:48:02 PM »

Quote

I'm not inclined to think a blank canvas with an unlimited budget is the best test of a creative mind.

Wouldn't a site with limited features and a limited budget be a much better test?

Perhaps you're right.

But which would be the more fun golf course to play?

Odds are the unlimited budget wins that one.

TH

« **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2003, 12:55:30 PM »

When the Emperor,Scribe and myself were allowed access we had a decent post of some of the positives. As I recall my favorite was the first par 3. Over a gorge of foliage and with a center line bunker, it was the only hole that reminded me of another great hole, Mercy, at BWR-valley#15. Just nowhere near as difficult.

I don't know if one should expect over the top golf holes since TF's concern before taking the job was that Steve would have everyone blown away by the 4th hole. So, it is a subtle blend of good golf. Hazards dot the playing field but rarely are in line.

Most of the hyperbole can easily be explained by knowing the history of the place and the exclusivity that use to exist. Very easy to see how people would be so grateful to have access that there analytical abilities became swayed.

« **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:04:56 PM »

Quote

Most of the hyperbole can easily be explained by knowing the history of the place and the exclusivity that use to exist. Very easy to see how people would be so grateful to have access that there analytical abilities became swayed.

There is no doubt that the exclusivity is a part of it - yes, it's not what it used to be (only friends of Mr. Wynn and other high rollers), but it is still something. $500 plus staying at one of the Mirage resorts gets you access, and that in and of itself is a LOT and is meaningful. Then you add in the treatment (limo pickup), the security, the names on the lockers, etc. etc. etc. and it is damn tough to ignore. Add the "engineering marvel" aspect and well, it is definitely difficult to assess this course simply as a golf course. It's just so much "more"...

All this being said, however, my contention is not that analytical abilities are "swayed", but rather than all this MATTERS! Why should it be ignored in any assessment of the golf course? It is most definitely all part of the playing of the game at Shadow Creek... to say it's not is just silly.

This gets back to a central argument I have all the time with participants here... can one take away the ocean from Pebble and Cypress? The wonderful surrounding town and the ass-tightening sense of history from The Old Course? The inherent beauty of the gorse and everything else at Dornoch? The emotional ghosts of CBMac flying around NGLA?

All of these things are part of the playing of the game at these places. All of these things matter. I've never heard a good reason why they should not.

And thus the same goes for Shadow Creek. People's analytical abilities aren't swayed, rather, they are in tune to the entire playing of the game there!

TH

« **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:09:49 PM »

Is it experientially a top 10?

« **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:15:43 PM »

redanman:

Very nice cutting to the chase. I'm not sure that it makes top 10 world wide experientially, but if it doesn't, it's not that far off. It is one hell of a golf experience UNLESS one is pre-disposed to (a) dislike privilege and exclusivity and/or (b) dislike courses designed by Tom Fazio. Thus it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but then again, what golf course is? A wonderful regular here who shall go nameless poo-poohed Cypress Point...

TH

« **Reply #23 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:24:32 PM »

I just explored the web site, and even THAT is exclusive. What is the old saying: "If you have to ask how much it is, you probably can't afford it!!!"

Maybe one day . . . .

« **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2003, 01:28:39 PM »

Quote

There is no doubt that the exclusivity is a part of it - $500 plus staying at one of the Mirage resorts gets you access, and that in and of itself is a LOT and is meaningful. Then you add in the treatment (limo pickup), the security, the names on the lockers, etc. etc. etc. and it is damn tough to ignore. It's just so much "more"... ...all this MATTERS!

TH

Are we talking about golf or going to a debutante's cotillion?

  My curiosity of playing every course in the world would not make me play this course for any reason except to play the course.

  $500 paid is a vote of approval for this kind of golf and I won't be a part of it. It is the Death Star of golf courses. To believe it is a golf paradise is to believe Sylvester Stallone is a true American hero. I just do not fathom its appeal and miss the ideal it is supposedly reaching for.

  Greatness should be reserved for results exemplifying ingenuity, courage, sacrifice, perserverance, originality, etc.; not excessiveness.

  What is so ugly about flat deserts anyway?

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