Barnbougle Dunes #1 Public Course in Australia

[Matt_Ward]

I had the pleasure in reading the February issue of Golf Australia and seeing an article on the Top 25 Best Public Access Courses.

At the top of the list was the new creation from Tom Doak Barnbougle Dunes. It's amazing that a layout that has only recently opened was able to leapfrog right to the top in such a short time. An impressive feat no doubt.

I was fascinated by the final comments from author Nigel Wall. He said ...

"Where does this course sit in the Australian golfing landscape? Only time will tell. Barnbougle Dunes is easily the best public access layout in the country straight away. I'd suggest it is definitely in the top five courses in Australia, probably even the top end of that bracket. It's that good."

I'd be curious to see how others who are well versed in the other public access courses in the country feel. The pictures of the following four courses rated after BD looked quite impressive with the likes of Brookwater, The Golf Club Kennedy Bay, The Dunes and Thirteenth Beach. Any additional info on them would be appreciated.

One other question -- does Australia have golf development through government jurisdictions like State Parks and local communities and the like and are any of real top quality to compete with the privately owned daily fee layouts mentioned in the article?

Last info item -- the magazine featured an update on the new St. Andrews Beach courses and they too looked quite unique. The Gunnamatta Course is set to open very soon and the second 18 called the Fingal Course is slated to open in '06 from what the article said.

Interesting goings on from the land down under. I'm looking forward to my '06 visit.

[Mike_Clayton]

Matt

Nigel's comment is pretty close. Barnbougle is a deal better than Kennedy Bay - which I have played and it's very good but too difficult to be really successful as a public course and I suspect Brookwater - which I have not played.
It is hard to imagine Brookwater being actually better than Kennedy Bay considering my suspicion that the land at Brookwater could hardly been as good as the land by the sea at KB.
BD is miles ahead of The Dunes - which is not as good as Portsea IMO - and 13th Beach. Both,however are very good- right by the sea in the dunes and good fun.
There are a lot of government owned public courses and none are any good at all. They are rudimentary layouts run for profit and easy access to beginners. Nothing like Bethpage unfortunatly.
There is some really odd stuff in that list - as usual.
To put Port Fairy 8 places below North Lakes for example is crazy.
If you are coming down don't use that list as any sort of accurate guide to what is worth playing.
I don't think there is much doubt Barnbougle is very close to the top of the list in Australia - maybe only behind Royal Melbourne but I will be accused of a personal bias no doubt!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - at your caliber, are you in agreement that the three new Doak courses would rank?

1 Barnbougle
2 St Andrews
3 Kidnappers

I thought so much of Kidnappers (but didn't continue on with the rest of you) that it seems almost beyond belief that it's third best, but that sure was the general consenses among the Ren Cuppers.  I've promised my namesake, Mr McCleer that I'll make it there soon.

JC

[Mike_Clayton]

Jonathan

If pressed then I would put them in that order.
They are so different and I would say in terms of getting the most out of the land and doing work of significant archictectural merit they are pretty equal.
Kidnappers was a spectacular site - more so than Barnbougle which is ahead of St Andrews on that score.
The ground made Kidnappers  more difficult to play because it was so hard and balls on the edges of holes like 15 (not that there are many holes like 15 anywhere in the world) found unplayable lies much easier than they would have if the ground had been  as sandy as the other two.
And, obviously Julian Robertson wanted a course difficult enough to hold the NZ Open.Certainly it is significantly more difficult than either BD or St Andrews.

Given the issue of srtong winds and the fact Barnbougle and Kidnappers are going to have a share of brutal days gives an advantage to St Andrews - which is also in a windy place but down under and through the dunes makes it more playable on a bad day.
All 3 however - and the unbuilt Fingal course which I think could be fantastic - are significant courses in this part of the world. Kidnappers especially is important in a country so starved of really good golf.
Mind you Barnbougle is equally significant in Tasmania where the best course is not in the top 50 down here.

[Mark_F]

Matt,

You're a fast mover.  The magazine has only been out a week here, and you have it already?  

13th Beach and The Dunes are really good - however, I think The Dunes is a bit too much of a bitch to walk to make it an entirely pleasant round, whereas 13th Beach is just real fun - despite a little bit of manufacturing on a couple of holes. Neither are particularly difficult, altough they have a few difficult holes between them - strangely enough, a 110-odd metre par 3 in 13th Beach's case. I think you'd like both, although 13th Beach is a good two hour drive from Melbourne.  There is a ferry from the Mornington Peninsula across to the opposite side, although you of course then have to drive back up...

The magazine's list is also very strange.  The two courses at Moonah Links,which are more or less alongside St Andrews Beach, are both open to the public most days, but omitted because they were in an earlier 'Best Resort Course' issue merely because there is a hotel on site - although you don't have to stay there to play. Most people here treat them as a public course whatever compartments magazines attempt to stuff them into.

The Legends course there is quite neat, albeit with some typical strange TWP goings on, and as it takes in some quite diverse terrain is probably worth a round if you are coming down to the Peninsula.

The Open course is an unmitigated disaster, a once only track for most people I've met who have played it.  Although 6800 metres long, it isn't because of the length people hate it; more because it's just uninteresting and unexciting.

Some people, however, rank it pretty highly, including one golf writer here who wrote in a magazine a few months back that he thought it would one day be recognised as being better than Augusta...

Needless to say, poor old Thommo thinks it's the dog's bollocks.  He's half right...

I'd be interested to see/hear your opinion on it when you're here.  

[Sean Walsh]

Mike,

Does this:

"and the unbuilt Fingal course which I think COULD be fantastic"

mean there is some doubt it will actually be seen through to completion or be adversely affected by financial constraints?


 

[Mike_Clayton]

Sean

I could have said 'will' be fantastic.I would rather understate the case than overstate it and come up short.
There are some wonderful holes out there that won't cost much to build.
My assumption is there will be a fantastic course on the ground sooner rather than later.
Certainly financial constraints will have nothing to do with the quality of the course.Unmade it is already a wonderful palce to play golf.

[Sean Walsh]

Thanks for the reply Mike.  Sorry to thread jack Matt.

Also I think Mark is being a little harsh on The Open course at Moonah Links.  To me it is not an unmitigated disaster it is a course built for a specific purpose.  Tournament golf in the 300m drive era. History will judge whether it suits its purpose.

I found it interesting enough to play although I am unlikely to pay the $80-$100 too often.  I have heard that the Legends is a better course and look forward to playing it.  

The only two of those mentioned so far that I can compare are Thirtheenth Beach and The Open.  Of the two I would place 13th Beach slightly ahead.

On a rare trip to Australia these are not two courses you will find yourself.  Remembering it is reasonably easy for foreign visitors to gain access to our best private courses, even if expensive in Australian terms.

Now I'll just sit and wait for the abuse from my Victorian brethren..

[Mike_Clayton]

SEAN

I think Barnbougle has enough really world-class holes to justify a decent green-fee.
I'm not sure the Open course has the holes that truly fascinate time after time to keep bringing people back.
It was built for a purpose but the holes that people - and I - love at Barnbougle are the two little four's, 4 and 12 and the 112 metre 7th.
Perhaps the Open course would be better with a couple of like holes.

[Chris Kane]

Matt Ward, I havn't played at Kennedy Bay or Brookwater, but I've played a lot of golf at 13th Beach and The Dunes.  Nevertheless, I can safely say that Barnbougle Dunes is easily the best public course in Australia.

BD will almost certainly debut in the top 5 in the three magazine lists next year, and IMO belongs at #2 behind RMW.  Of the public courses, Kennedy Bay usually sneaks into the back end of the top 10, and The Dunes, 13th Beach and Brookwater are between 11 and 25.

The Dunes and 13th Beach are both good courses, but are not worth travelling overseas for.  The Dunes is two minutes from St Andrews Beach, and 13th Beach is on the other side of the bay, just over an hour from Melbourne (Mark Ferguson must drive a golf cart if it takes him two hours!).  Unless you have a lot of time here, I wouldn't include them in your itinerary.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - You are so right.  That 15th at Kidnappers in a stiff wind may be the hardest hole (and I'm bearing down on 1000 lifetime courses played) I have ever seen.

We did a piece last fall in Wash Golf Monthly on scary holes.  I wrote about the 8th at PVGC and that frightful approach shot.  Well the 8th at PVGC is just a slight chill up your spine compared to the terror of 15th at Kidnappers (Doak/Robertson should rename this hole from Pirate's Plank to The House of Usher!)

In a stiff wind this hole is so terrifying that the story posted on a previous thread bears re-telling.  Several nights after the Ren Cup I was having dinner with the Director of Golf and Superintendent of Kauri Cliffs.  The super told me he played Kidnapper's 15th (550 yards) with two 150 yard 3/4 swing grounder 4-irons, then PUTTED 4 times from 250 yards!  Beat the hell out of the four Xs my group got (included a teaching pro and scratch amateur).

JC  

[Mike_Clayton]

It is unquestionably the hardest par five I have ever seen.
In pro event into a 25 mile and hour wind it would easily average over 6.
It is not even close - the scariest 600 yards in golf.

[Brian Walshe]

Matt,

To answer your original question, Barnbougle is easily the best of the courses you mention.  Brookwater is visually stunning with holes playing down corridors lined with huge gums, but to my mind is too narrow in most places to provide many options other than "hit it down the middle" and suffers because of it.  It has some good holes, one or two shockers (9 and 10) but probably only the 1st that I thought was exceptional.  The green complexes are good but again the narrowness of the fairways means that on occasions the preferred line in is from 10m into the trees.

Kennedy Bay is better than Brookwater and is a delight to play.  Not as spectacular a setting but with a collection of very good holes.  The most striking feature is the bunkering which is made up of small and deep pot bunkers in almost all cases.  They are such that going out sideways or backwards is sometimes the only option, not a bad thing but in a location where the wind really blows this is a place that could bite you very quickly.  The highlights for me were the excellent short par 4’s and a couple of terrific par 3’s.  One thing I felt was a little strange was the way almost all the par 4’s and 5’s had their landing areas pinched in at almost the same distance (around 250 yds).  Given the penalty of the fairway bunkers and the strength of the wind off the Indian Ocean in the afternoons I’d suggest that if you intend to play it, the earlier in the day the better.

The Dunes and 13th Beach are both Tony Cashmore courses.  The Dunes suffers a little in comparison to 13th Beach, mainly because it was a redevelopment of an existing course (Limestone Valley) and some of the new holes that use sections of the old don’t work that well.  The tee shots on the 1st and 9th and the par 3 3rd for example.  It is still a good course and a lot of fun to play.  13th Beach is better and is a much more consistent package than the Dunes.  If starts on some pretty flat ground but once it moves into the sand dunes it moves up a gear and has some terrific holes.  The par 3’s particularly 7 and 16 stand out.  

In order I’d rate them Kennedy Bay, 13th Beach, the Dunes and Brookwater.  None of them come even remotely close to Barnbougle which has better holes, no glaring weaknesses and is gobsmackingly spectacular.  It is just in an entirely different class to the other 4.

Lastly to the two TWP/TP courses at Moonah Links.  I enjoy the Legends course a lot.  Aside from the horrendous 15th and the gimmicky 16th it is a lot of fun to play and has some great holes.  I just love 4.   The Open course is a different beast entirely and whilst some excuse it on the basis that it was designed to test the modern pro I don’t think you can overlook it’s obvious failings so easily.  It is long, heavily bunkered and very penal with little attempt to reward the smart player over the long bomber.  For a course designed to counteract the distance the ball now travels, all it has done is play straight into the hands of the long drivers.  No short par 4’s, average par 3’s and some pretty strange stuff in between.  Of the 7 courses mentioned it tails the field by a fair margin.
 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Appreciate the comments ... I'm still puzzled that someone as knowledgeable as Nigel would make the claim that Barnbougle Dunes had the wherewithal to make the top of the charts for all courses in Australia and be ahead of such giants as Royal Melbourne, New South Wales and Kingston Heath.

Is Royal Melbourne being given a fair shake? I can't say because I have never been to Australia, but when the new boy comes on the block there can be a tendency for people to highlight the new born and forget the past champ. This is the same thing that happens with people I know who see Friar's Head being ahead of Shinnecock Hills and NGLA.

Many thanks ...

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward,

I share your skepticism when a new course is favorably compared to the best of well established courses. Moreover, I'm hardly an expert on golf courses in Australia

........ but if Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath are the standard, then I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest Barnbougle is already among the elite courses in Australia.

I came away a huge fan of Kingston Heath for several reasons, but my guess is that many observers will prefer Barnbougle - the quality of the site is just so much better.

I'll wimp out and punt on the comparison to Royal Melbourne until a second visit, but again, wouldn't be surprised if a significant percentage of golfers preferred Barnbougle.

Barnbougle isn't hype, as no less than Mike Keiser suggested in his opening day remarks.

[Tom_Doak]

It certainly helps that some of the likely contenders for "best public course in Australia" are listed as resorts instead ... they ought to just combine the two lists.  (Where have I heard that before?)

I'm flattered that ANYONE would think Barnbougle might be worthy of finishing ahead of Royal Melbourne or Kingston Heath someday, but I will be really surprised if it ever happens.  Royal Melbourne is the heavyweight champ of Australia and you have to knock out the champ to take away his title ... I don't see how any course could knock out a place with the history and quality details of Royal Melbourne.

However, I will say that Barnbougle is 100% links golf ... not sort-of links golf like the courses on the Mornington Peninsula.  [I haven't seen Kennedy Bay.]  And I believe that Australians seeing 100% links golf for the first time are likely to be swept up in the real thing, and so it doesn't surprise me that they think it's better than the other public courses they've played.

Ultimately, though, it's where the course ranks with the best in Australia that will make it successful or not.  And the jury will be out on that for a while.

[Mark_F]

Sean Walsh,

I think Brian Walshe summed up Moonah Links perfectly.  It's a once only track, really. Does it really do the job it's designed for all that well?  If you're attempting to rein in the pro's, why build four par fives?  There are a couple of interesting holes, though.  But only a couple

Also, Re the Fingal course,
 
I've started on some pictures of the land, hopefully will be able to post them when finished in a few weeks.  I saw part of it that I hadn't seen before, and there's some wonderful stuff out there.  A little easy to get lost out there at the moment, but 4 is just mind-blowing.  Mike must be really itching to get started on it.  I know I can't wait to uncover the rest of the course.

Chris Kane,

A little over an hour from Melbourne?  Where does your idea of Melbourne start?  Hoppers Crossing?  It's an hour from the city side of the West gate, then another twenty to the course.  And if you live in the tranquil eastern suburbs like me, it's two hours easily.  Especially with the demerit points system.  

And the Dunes and 13th Beach not being worth travelling overseas for?  I suppose it depends on where you've come from and how much you want to see, but despite their weak points, they're still more interesting and fun than a number of Sandbelt courses.

[Brian Walshe]

Matt,

Most reasonable judges would have the Top 5 in Australia as RMW, RME, Kingston Heath, NSW and Royal Adelaide.  Barnbougle is clearly superior to Royal Adelaide (which I'm told was much better before the work prior to the last time it held the Australian Open) and RME.  In both cases it has a stronger set of holes and the 'wow factor" of the site in it's favour.  NSW is an interesting comparison and probably the only course in the Top 5 that can match Barnbougle's "wow factor".  In the end I'd place Barnbougle ahead of it because it has more good holes, better bunkering overall and more interesting greens complexes.

From there it gets interesting.  I'm very tempted to rate it better than Kingston Heath.  It matches the quality of the holes, bunkering and greens and has that intangible that has you standing on places like the 4th tee grinning like an idiot and 10 mins later standing on the 5th tee in awe not just of the hole but also the setting.  

As Tom pointed out in his post, it would be almost unthinkable for a course to displace RMW.  Holes like 3, 4, 5, 6, 10 and 17 are some of the best on the planet.  Then again 8, 14 and 15 are solid rather than good or great.  The fact that people are even discussing if Barnougle matches RMW is an indication of how good Barnbougle is.  There is no other course in the country that I would consider a threat to the Number One postion.  It will be very interesting to see how Barnbougle matures over the next few years.

[David_Elvins]

The Dunes and 13th Beach are both good courses, but are not worth travelling overseas for....Unless you have a lot of time here, I wouldn't include them in your itinerary.

Have to disagree with you there, Chris.  13th Beach is rated 10-15 in the country.  So if you were going to play 10 courses in the country, you would have to play 13th beach, remembering  it is a very significant new course.  I would say that a trip to Barwon Heads and 13th Beach would be highly reccomended to anyone coming to melbourne.  Once you have done RM, KH and Vic, I would head down to the Barwon before playing the rest of the sandbelt, especially for someone like Matt who likes boldness and new courses and isn't as into the subtle architecture that the good second tier sandbelt course like Woodlands and Commonwealth offer.  

[Matt_Ward]

David said ...

"... especially for someone like Matt who likes boldness and new courses and isn't as into the subtle architecture that the good second tier sandbelt course like Woodlands and Commonwealth offer."

David -- I don't mind subtle but not so subtle that sleeping is the next step when playing such courses. I'm psyched to be going to the land down under in '06 and seeing firsthand what is clearly one of the more undervalued places to play golf on the planet.

But -- then again -- all you Aussies already know how good the golf is. It's us Yanks that need to wake up and smell the coffee.  

[Chris Kane]

David, I'm not saying that 13th isn't worth seeing, but there are plenty of courses in Melbourne and surrounds you'd see first, from a gca standpoint.  Probably RMW, RMW, KH, Woodlands, Victoria, Commonwealth, Metro, Yarra, National Moonah and Portsea.  Of course, if you had plenty of time, 13th and The Dunes would be on the list to play.

Mark, I've been down to Barwon Heads a number of times, and it is always about an hour from when we enter the freeway at Burnley.  From my place in the inner-eastern suburbs, its a little under 1.5 hours to the clubhouse at 13th.  From the sandbelt region, it would be creaping up towards two hours, but from MELBOURNE, its about an hour!  

[Matthew Delahunty]

It's really interesting to see how people go about choosing what courses would be worthwhile playing. I suppose it all gets down to how much time you have and what you're looking for. If you had 3 weeks in Melbourne to play golf then there'd be 15 courses worth seeing. Personally, I only use ratings lists as a guide rather than a determining factor. I would say most tourists come and play the sandbelt because it's a distinct Australian style of golf course (sort of like going to Scotland to play links courses, or England for heathland courses). But there is more to offer in Australian architecture than just the sandbelt. So if you want to get a good overview of Melbourne/Victorian golf courses then I would say go to 13th Beach, Barwon Heads, Portsea, The National, Moonah Links and The Dunes, because they all have something a little bit different to offer.

I'm surprised that nobody yet has developed a top notch bushland course that is uniquely Australian.

Courses like 13th Beach might not be outstanding enough to rate architecturally amongst the top courses in the world, but I think we tend to underestimate the overall quality of our golf courses and the characteristics and conditions which they have to offer. If 13th Beach, The Dunes and Portsea existed in parts of the US they'd be overwhelming successes and cost 6 times the price to play. Ultimately anyone coming here will enjoy the golf, whether they play at RMW, the Mornington Peninsula courses or the second tier Sandbelt courses. That's why Melbourne is a great place to play golf.

[David_Elvins]

David, I'm not saying that 13th isn't worth seeing, but there are plenty of courses in Melbourne and surrounds you'd see first, from a gca standpoint.  Probably RMW, RMW, KH, Woodlands, Victoria, Commonwealth, Metro, Yarra, National Moonah and Portsea.  Of course, if you had plenty of time, 13th and The Dunes would be on the list to play.

Chris,

No need to clarify, I know exactly what you meant, I just disagree with you!  Once a visitor has played RM, KH and Vic, anything else on the sandbelt is going to be a letdown.  You may as well go to a course that is ranked as high and is as architecturally strong, but in a different style and from a different era.  I think a day at Barwon Heads/13th Beach would be a lot more interesting, fun and gca worthy than a day at Metro and Yarra Yarra.  

[Matthew Delahunty]

However, I will say that Barnbougle is 100% links golf ... not sort-of links golf like the courses on the Mornington Peninsula.  [I haven't seen Kennedy Bay.]  And I believe that Australians seeing 100% links golf for the first time are likely to be swept up in the real thing, and so it doesn't surprise me that they think it's better than the other public courses they've played.

Ultimately, though, it's where the course ranks with the best in Australia that will make it successful or not.  And the jury will be out on that for a while.

Tom,

Do you see Barnbougle being a more a destination for the overseas golfer or the local one? Ultimately the commercial success of the venture will depend upon it's acceptance with the Australian public, but the course is quite removed from most of the population. Does the course have to be equal or near equal to Royal Melbourne to be a commercial success? Are there too many good choices in and around Melbourne for Melbourne golfers not to make a regular trip to Barnbougle? Is Sydney's lack of as many top quality golf courses a sign that Sydneysiders don't have the same desire to play outstanding courses? And how do you get people to appreciate the only true links golf in Australia (ie, get them to Barnbougle in the first place) if they've never experienced it before?

I suppose you can draw comparisons with Bandon/Pacific Dunes and Royal Dornoch. My impression of Dornoch was that despite its ranking and quality that many Britons consider it too far out of the way to play. Yet when I was there the course was overrun with Americans. America's population can probably sustain an out of the way development in Oregon. Is the goal for Barnbougle success with Australians, or enough international visitors to prop up the local revenue?  

[Tom_Doak]

Matthew:

Royal Melbourne only gets about 1,000 overseas visitor rounds per year, and it would be folly to assume that Barnbougle would get more.  No course is going to be a financial success on that kind of number.

Barnbougle will be a big success only if it achieves a following like Bandon Dunes, where groups of golfers from Melbourne and Sydney like it enough to go every year, or possibly even more than once a year.

I think that's possible, precisely because it's different enough from the Sand Belt courses for people to want to enjoy the variety on a regular basis.  If you put St. Andrews Beach in Tasmania, or Victoria or Commonwealth, they wouldn't be enough different than the Sand Belt courses for people to make the trip regularly.  But Barnbougle does have that chance; it's a question of pricing and what Australians are willing to pay.

If it fails because Australians decide they don't like links golf, I'll be surprised by that.