[RJ_Daley]

http://www.golfgroupltd.com/hideout/index.html

Rather than prolong Tim's routing thread, I thought I would post Forrest Richardson's Hideout GC web site, and perhaps folks can read the history of the project and have a look at the route plan and photos.

What viewing and reading the material on that website tells me, is that evaluating a route can only be done by examining the criteria of what the client needed, and highest best use of the property with consideration to the strategy of the game, efficiency of the land use, and aesthetics.  All of that criteria is on a multiple sliding scale and every site and situation gives varying emphasis/priority to those multiple criteria.

Frankly, I think the project history is written in a sort of enviro-political bureaucratic speak that makes it hard for me to determine what came first; the golf market demand - the the community/EPA need - the architects designs - or the opportunity to use some federal clean-up money that may have benefited various private entities.  That is NOT a slam towards Richardson, but it is an observation that many entities got their beeks wet on this project for varying reasons that may be good or bad use of fed funds depending to some degree on your political persuasions.  At any rate, an interesting account from Forrest Richardson and very instructive and insightful.

[Tim Weiman]

Dick Daley:

Directing us to the web site makes sense to understand the Hideout project. It also supports the point I've been trying to make. Discussion about routing is difficult without lots of project information. Absent that inside scoop we are left with generalites like "the architect used natural features".

To make progress discussing routing we are going to need to attract more industry people and/or folks close enough to projects to share meaningful details.

[Dan Kelly]

Nicely done Web site.

Don't miss the 305-yard "par-5 (or 4)" 13th at Lava Mountain (under "Work in Progress") and the tee markers at Bonnet Creek (under "Golf Course Imaging").

[Forrest Richardson]

Update: Snow cover is light this year (good and bad news there...) which means The Hideout may be ready for play as early as March. Our intention is a late summer gathering, but those interested in getting on early may want to keep checking the daily temperature for those much needed 60+ degree days.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry I had to bail out on the Sunday get together.  My brother had a 6 pm flight back home to Oregon and our 5 pm drink was not a timely thing!  Hopefully next time.  

I absolutely loved Apache Stronghold, with TSN not far behind.  The fact that you could walk both was certainly a plus.  We played AS on Friday, TSN on Sunday, and Desert Mountain/Apache on Saturday as a guest of the pro.  DM/A is lush, nice course, homes pretty close on both sides, cart ball, can't remember any of the holes except the dual-green par 5 (why would anybody play the short/no bunker option?).  

With regard to conditions at AS: they are making progress.  I haven't seen how it was before last year, but I didn't have a big problem with this year's fairways.  I had to bump the ball maybe 20% of the time, usually played it down.  There were some weeds which needed to be excised, but I think budget is a problem given how cheap the deal is up there.  I heard from a guy in the shop that they are giving up on the bluegrass and overseeding with bermuda in the fall and hoping to make that the dominant grass.   What a bunch of great golf holes; I can remember the entire layout and remember none of Desert Mountain.

By contrast, I was put off by the pristine condition of Talking Stick.  They've overseeded the fairways with ryegrass, and I found the course played longer at 6500 middle tees than AS played at 7000 and DM/A at 6800.  Very little roll, and not much firmness in front of the greens.  But it's a great ground game design, there was always a shot on the ground but usually you had to hit it harder than you wanted to and I came up short a lot.  The glory of that course is the great set of bunkers, deep, steep, great shadow effects, and great tie in to the native grasses on the outside of the fairway bunkers.  Those bunkers are a tutorial!  I particularly loved the carry bunker on #4, the center bunkers on #5 and #18, and the bunkers short left on #18.  The par 3 #11 ("Brassie"), what a super long par 3.  

I'll be posting on the Discussion Board about the whole trip.  Sorry we couldn't discuss it in person.

Regards,
Bill McBride

[Bill_McBride]

Well obviously I clicked on "reply" rather than "private message" to Forrest.  Will put together a more detailed report on my trip to Arizona very soon!

[Forrest Richardson]

That's OK, Bill. At least you didn't slam anyone or anything. Glad you had a good time in Arizona...next time let's go to Utah.

[Bill_McBride]

So what do you recommend in Utah?! (Other than Monticello which I do want to play!). Actually I've promised my wife a week in Tucson next January.  What do you recommend down there?  Any of your designs down there?  I look forward to playing a "Forrest Richardson Signature course!"

[Forrest Richardson]

Bill -- I'm more familiar with courses down south toward the Four Corners Region (Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico).

Devil's Thumb (Rick Phelps) -- Delta, CO
Redlands Mesa (Jim Engh) -- Grand Jct., CO
Tamarron (Art Hills) -- Durango, CO
Pinon Hills (Ken Dye) -- Framington, NM

I've heard good things about a few layouts up north, near Salt Lake City -- but not having seen them up close I would not want to comment. The above list is worthwhile. I hear Tamarron is making changes at the hands of a land planner -- so I can't guarantee it's still wholesome. I always considered it one of Hills best works -- a real canyon course with plenty of terrific and unusual holes.

[Survey Stu]

There's no north arrow on the routing plan, unless I am missing it.

[Slag Bandoon]

 I was a little confused at first as my eyes couldn't focus on tiny hole numbers but interesting use of escape from the standard routing at 14 as it diverges to two sequential par threes and out at 9th green.   Or am I reading it wrongly?

  

[Forrest Richardson]

North is up on that plan regardless of whether there is an arrow. There is a 3-hole loop around the practice area that uses No. 10 in its entirety as "1", a separate hole as "2" and then designated tees for "3" which plays to No. 9's green. This loop is for practice, kids, etc., and is managed by the proshop.

Nos. 13 and 14 are par-5s.

Hope this assists.

[Bill_McBride]

Forrest, that "Four Corners" tour has been interesting to me for a while.  We have some really good friends who live in Durango which sounds like it could be a good base for such a tour.  What are the distances involved?
Thanks,
Bill

[Forrest Richardson]

From Durango:

2 hours to Monticello (The Hideout)
1.5 hours to Farmington
2.5 hours to Grand Junction
78.0 hours to St. Andrews (at 60 MPH)

It may be more efficient, obviously, if you make a loop. There is also an interesting course in Farmington, just west of town. One nine is open and links-ish, the other is tree-lined and older.

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