News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


jg7236

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2005, 12:29:16 AM »
Brandon,

Great pictures, great linework, great post, and good luck to you in all of your endeavors!

Cheers,

John

Craig Van Egmond

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2005, 08:05:18 AM »

Excellent pictures Brandon!!


Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2005, 08:49:05 AM »
Brandon,

To say you dabble in art is being a little disingenuous, those are some wonderful drawings, and to then show all of us you have connections all the way up to the Pope is most impressive.  The golf hole rendering leaves a little to be desired though, but I couldn't have doen better.  I have always felt that he is one of the major historic figures of my time, near or at the top.  I am glad Leonardo and Rembrandt did not know computers as it may have taken them away from their great powers of observation in the outdoors and put them in a room for hours staring at a screen.  That scenario would have been the loss of two great minds to history.  Nothing replaces man's time spent in observing the natural world, and working the paints and brush by hand.  I am afraid many great minds are lost in the static of todays world, television, computers.  I predict the minds of today like Leonardo and Rembrandt will be ones that remain mostly entrenched in their powers of observation in the natural world, but their efforts may receive a real boost from the grunts that know their way around the computers.  That is the age old difficulty in this business, coming out of school if you are really good at drafting and graphic arts, today in computer graphics that can get you into the design business but it can also pigeon hole you into being the CADD jockey in the firm and you never really break into the design business, you become the production guy back in the office with the occassional token site visit.  I think every young person must understand that and be prepared to bide your time unless you join one of the big firms that are so busy, and whose principals are not as committed to being in the field then you might get more field time and eventually move into a design position when more CADD jockeys are hired below you.  It si all very exciting the tools available today, but I would much rather be in the field using the creative powers of personal observation and interaction rather than sitting in an office at a screen.  Despite the advancements and the trememdous future ahead for CADD I am more convinced today that your best efforts, and the best courses of this age will come from those who spend less time with plans and more time in the field.  

ian

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2005, 09:18:19 AM »
Kelly and Tom

I began in the era without computers and now regularly use a computer.

I find it interesting that those who do not use computers assume that anyone who can, spends inordinate amount of hours staring at a screen to become proficient.

Photoshop, for example, takes 3 hours to learn (that's it). A few hours a month for a year will help you figure out all you'll ever need. These tools are set up to be easy to use.


Golf architecture is not pure art. It's half science with a lot of calculations and detail drawings to make the drainage and irriagtion work. We are in a time where golf course irrigation sometimes has to be completely supplied by run-off, and internal drainage systems are becoming a requirement. Its hard to calculate this all in the field. It's a large advantage to be able to do this yourself, and the computer makes it far easier than doing it by hand. I've done both.

The other issue is not every project is a stand alone golf course. Any project involving engineers and planners requires coordination. Nothing beats sharing a common file to ensure it all works together.

Not one "computer geek" on here is arguing for design done from an office. We all agree that the most important work is done on sight. BUT dismissing them as a useful tool is your loss.

The best example I can provide is cut and fills. I used to do these by hand when I first started. It took me 4 days to do a proper cut and fill. It now takes me 4 hours including hand checks and a review for spikes (lines not at elevation). That four hours also gives me the cut and fill, a cut fill elevation plan, cut fill in localized areas, and the cut fill balance at particular elevations if required by regulating agencies.


Brandon,

wonderful drawings.

Mike_Young

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2005, 09:49:49 AM »
Kelly,
I agree with you on computers but in our case the computer allows us to be in the field much more than in the office.  As a matter of fact we use laptops for all of our software and keep it in the field as well.
I am a small firm and the more I can allow my one associate in the field the better for me.  Brandon receives all the fielld time he wants.
Ian,
I agree. The computer give me much more time.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2005, 10:02:13 AM »
I should back off my comments about the importance of computers to Leonardo and Rembrandt because I forgot about the investigations that have been done into the various optic tools some of the great painters used to project images to assist them in their drawing and painting.  Certainly the cameras and computers today would give them a ameans by which to more accurately protray images in their paintings.  

Ian,

I do not think I dismissed them and I agree with Mike's point that thier use could save time in the office to spend more in the field, particulalry if you are a one man design firm and doing everything yourself.  hopefully we can argue the subtleties of the issue without claiming one or the other is either for an all out ban, or for no field work and total computer immersion in the office.

Tom_Doak

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2005, 10:15:31 AM »
Brandon:

You are indeed an excellent artist.  Luckily that is not all there is to golf architecture or I would never have gotten a foothold in the business to begin with ... nor would many of the famous architects in the past, Tom Simpson and Mike Strantz being the most notable exceptions.

Mike N:

I did not understand the function of "routing software," so thanks for the explanation.  I've heard some people claim that there is software which actually FINDS golf holes on a topo map ... but it would be only as good as the person who programmed it originally, then.  

I meant to say that the computer would never replace the need for artistic talent on the part of the designer.  Do you disagree with that?

Mike Y:

It's always fun to hear someone admit that once they get the computer stuff finished, they generally just use the centerline points and "concede to onsite design."


Mike Nuzzo

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2005, 11:25:06 AM »
Mike N:
I meant to say that the computer would never replace the need for artistic talent on the part of the designer.  Do you disagree with that?
I agree, it will never happen.
The inherent flaws with using a computer I listed were somewhat tongue in cheek, as those will never happen either.

Brandon,
Those images look great, did you draw them on a pc?  
Just kidding because they look hand done.  Although you can get similar results using Illustrator.
Glad to see you got a haircut...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Brandon OMahoney

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2005, 12:28:02 PM »
I'm glad to see that everyone appreciated the images.  I really am grateful for the compliments.
 
Tom,
  Again, I agree that a computer will never replace an artist, in the sense that we’re speaking of.  I also agree that you don't have to be an artist, PGA pro or a landscape architect to excel in this field.  I just wanted to make sure that everyone’s open to the fact that anything’s possible.    

Mike N.,
  I've never tried Illustrator.  I've worked with Photoshop CS a bit, but I mainly use it for adding fonts, or scanning and resizing images.  A friend of mine tried to talk me into buying Illustrator recently, but I’ve been a bit too busy lately to try it out.  Do you use it often?  Oh yea, and the haircut was just for the Pope.  I've grown back the bowl cut.

jg7236

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2005, 02:04:34 PM »
Brandon,

Don't buy Illustrator or even mess with it, Photoshop CS is much better.

Cheers,

John

Mike Nuzzo

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2005, 12:19:47 PM »
Don't buy Illustrator or even mess with it, Photoshop CS is much better.

John,
Hope all is well with you.

I'm curious to understand how you came to your opinion about Illustrator?
If you, or anyone, were interested I could show you some of the golf related functions Illustrator can tackle.

My interest is to not steer the others in the wrong direction.

Cheers
Mike
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

RJ_Daley

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2005, 03:06:29 PM »
Thank you gentlemen for a fine interchange discussion of your various core beliefs and methodology as professional designers working in an era of intense demand for efficient yet artistic design results.  The level of your utilization of the CADD tools and where you place their importance is very interesting.  What it says to me, as a complete novice who has only had very limitted exposure to AutoCadd, is that the technology in the right hands (all of you included above - and not trying to kiss up to any of you ::)) can and will produce great golf course design on an efficient basis for large project management and integration with the bigger engineering picture.  (i.e. courses as part of large track planned development units of housing and suburban settings).

It is obvious that some of the designers above weigh more towards the emphasis of "in field" powers of observation, see the land-feel the land through your eye and pen-route and shape upon the land as you go with personal communication with your shapers, with minimal input from CAdd.  That school seems to be the design-builders of limitted production per year, like Doak, C&C, Hanse, KBM and that whole gang (acknowleging that Doak seems to be entering greater production fequency).  While, others are seeming to say that Cadd gives you all the technical inputs and calculations to free you up to also be on the land more than just sit infront of the screen.  Yet, technical plans and documentation are needed in the bigger commercial projects for plan acceptance by regulatory/zoning agencies, and developer understandintg and interpretation and cost efficiency.

It seems you have the two extreems of "on-the-ground or in-the-dirt" design like Sand Hills or Barnbougle Dunes, and you have the big project integrated with planned developments like The Villages or Reynolds Plantation, etc.

Where it gets interesting to me is the crossover projects where, "in-the-dirt" is the appropriate method for the kind of land and scope of the project, like Dismal River to be done by Nicklaus.  In that case is too much technology and documentation counter productive?  Compared that to something like Cuscowilla, which I assume needed detailed technical drawings and plans to be integrated with the golf course design, more so than C&Cs more typical approaches.  Did C&C have to bring on more outside technical consulting to get all that approved and to work efficiently from an engineering prospective?

Tom Doak, has the joint effort for Sebonack bridged some kind of gap in that regard?  Could it be that you do the "in-the-dirt" routings and details-aesthetics, playability to contouring and surface drainage schemes; whereas JN's team approves golf strategy and his firm prepares technical documentation for regulatory and client reviews?  Or, does that stir a pot that shouldn't be messed with? ::) :o ;D

BTW, does Brandon look like the actor, Eric McCormak or what?  Those are som fine drawings Brandon! 8)



« Last Edit: January 16, 2005, 03:14:20 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Larry_Rodgers

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2005, 09:18:32 PM »
We use the computer and many other GIS tools for existing golf course renovation projects. The low level GPS map is a good base to start from. This mapping process provides the GIS points that the aerial information can be matched to. The AutoCAD is then used as a drafting tool to layout the work required.

Once we have all of this data, we enter the .dwg/.dfx files into a fujitsu "pentop" computer that is connected to a Trimble Pathfinder XL GPS system. We also have access to a real time correction signal that allows the field staking staff to layout the work to plan.

This computer technology provides the project a way to monitor the project and determine if all of the work on the plan is actually being built as designed right then and there.

We find the use of computer technology the most benificial during and after the construction. This information is also provided to the architect of record to assist them with determining the #'s such as yardage and square footage of greens.

Before we leave, the construction worked is entered into the pentop computer via GPS interface and the data is converted to AutoCAD data. It is then converted to a GIS system used to water the grass. Because the GIS data is all georeferenced it can be used with many hand held devices that understand geotiff or .shp "shape" file extensions.

We found the microsoft based PDA's too small to read and need the power of a full computer for the integration of AutoCAD and GPS. The latest Fujitsu pentop gives us about 5 hours of useage on one battery and the latest color screens are wonderful in the sunlight.


paul cowley

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2005, 09:48:09 PM »
...as much as I have come to rely on the technology mentioned, its reassuring to know I can still take a course from A to Z sans electricity.....
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2005, 09:57:41 PM »
Paul:

I'd get along fine without electricity, too, although I'd have less to do at this time of night.  I asked my associates last week what was the most important thing they learned from our trip Down Under in December, and Don Placek said he was still shaking his head over the fact that we built two courses down there without drawing anything more than a routing plan [and I never even redrew the plan for Barnbougle when we decided to change the whole back nine!].

RJ:  The difference between the Nicklaus group and us in technology hasn't been a major stumbling block -- they do a lot more drawings than we do, and I'm sure they have a lot more gadgets back in the office too, but once the dirt starts flying Jack is comfortable reacting on the fly to what he's seeing.  [Remember, he had his days with Pete Dye, too.]

I think the difference between Nicklaus Design and us is more fundamental than that ... they design from the inside out, and we design from the outside in.  Someday I'll try to explain that in more detail, but not until the statute of limitations runs out.  


Mike_Young

Re:Use of computers in design process
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2005, 10:12:41 PM »
Tom,
you say  ". they design from the inside out, and we design from the outside in. "  that might be the most profound thing you have said.  Sort of sums up this whole business .
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tags: