Feeding golf balls to bunkers

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I've always liked the green and greenside feature that feeds a ball hit to the perimeter of a green, down into a nearby bunker.

I've referenced several holes at NGLA that incorporate this feature.

Today, I noticed its significant presence at Seminole.
It seemed particularly effective at # 5 where some of my foursome struggled with approach and recovery shots.

The beauty of the feature is that mis-judged or mis-hit approaches are fed off the green into the bunkers, usually with the golfer watching in disbelief or disgust.

Now, the golfer, having suffered and witnessed his fate, is faced with a recovery where his ball, if hit too short or too long, may suffer the same fate, again, and again.

This puts tremendous pressure on the golfer for the shot at hand, especially if the hole location is close to the slope.

It also indelibly etches this architectural feature and its workings into the golfers mind, creating additional pressure.

At what other courses do these features flourish ?

What architects enjoyed incorporating them into their designs ?

And, do any modern day architects use these features as an integral component of their designs ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

I know not if it occurs at his other designs, but Rees Jones pulls this off to a T. on our Dunes course.

Another question, why on earth do we insist on having collars/fringes on greens that prevent the ball from rolling into the defending bunker?

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, that's pretty much the same question as why do supers tighten fairways to the extent that there's rough in front of fairway bunkers, slowing the roll of errant tee balls short of the bunker.  Firm fairways should allow off line balls to feed into fairway bunkers in the same manner you describe for greenside bunkers.  The poster child for rough-surrounded bunkers was #18 at Bethpage Black at the US Open.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Bill McBride,

Unfortunately, GCGC has these "rough buffers" that tend to prevent balls from finding their intended resting place, the bottom of the bunker.

Many would like to see them removed.
Hopefully, this will become a reality this season.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, you might try what I did with my young super.  I took him into the office, logged onto GCA, got into Ran's profiles, and showed him many examples of what best maintenance practice is for fairway feeding into bunker.  We look better now in a few places, but certainly not all.  We are a lot better with short grass up to greenside bunker on both approach side and green side.  We have a rough collar (pretty wiry Bermuda) but it's set back, a really nice look.

Ran's photos were very helpful in getting my point across, another reason to support GCA!

[Brent Hutto]

I've always liked the green and greenside feature that feeds a ball hit to the perimeter of a green, down into a nearby bunker...

...The beauty of the feature is that mis-judged or mis-hit approaches are fed off the green into the bunkers, usually with the golfer watching in disbelief or disgust.

Now, the golfer, having suffered and witnessed his fate, is faced with a recovery where his ball, if hit too short or too long, may suffer the same fate, again, and again.

This puts tremendous pressure on the golfer for the shot at hand, especially if the hole location is close to the slope.

It also indelibly etches this architectural feature and its workings into the golfers mind, creating additional pressure.

At what other courses do these features flourish ?

This is pre-renovation but when we played at Pine Needles last February one of my friends was completely fried by this feature after 36 holes in a day. He probably hit into at least ten greenside bunkers and on more than half of them his ball at some point touched the green before rolling off into the bunker. Some of those were approach shots, a couple were chip shots and at least one was a bunker shot that rolled over the green and into another bunker.

That same day I had at least one ball where I pitched over a bunker with insufficient pace on the ball after it landed and it rolled back into the bunker. I also had a half-wedge shot with too much sidespin run from its landing spot near the center of the green all the way into a bunker. And the winter greens were not nearly as fast or firm as they would be in mid-summer.

By the end of the day we'd start laughing at my buddy Dave if his ball ever started rolling toward a bunker. It might be twenty yards but we knew somehow he'd get there. I don't think that course was actually particularly tough in that regard. Keep in mind that we were three double-digit handicappers, two of us from up North with rusty late-winter swings. So a lot of these were poorly struck or off-target shots. But it was still fun.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I'm generally in favour of feeding bunkers, as I'm generally in favour of the 'no bunker is fair or unfair' argument, but there are exceptions and I saw one yesterday at RTJ sn and Reese's Duke University course. A long uphill par 4 with a slight sloping from right to left around the green. Smallish opening between bunkers (surprise surprise) to roll the ball on. So a short hitter or an old geezer's only chance of getting on in 2 is to play a fairway wood and use the hook slope to bring it from the front right. This is exactly where the feeding bunker was placed.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Lloyd Cole,

Why would you expect a short hitter or an old geezer to get home in two on a long uphill par 4 ?

[TEPaul]

One of the reasons this type of thing may be so prevalent in this country is for ecological or enviromental reasons---at least that's what I was reading yesterday in Links Magazine, I believe. If I can find it, I'll post it. I'm certainly not saying this is a good reason, but it was a reason given.

The more common reason I've been given, at my own course, is that mowing close into bunkers and such is a far more labor intensive and consequently more costly thing to do!

At the very least, I mean to find out how much more labor intensive and costly so as I can present that to determine if it's "of value" (to playabiliy).

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've posted this hole for this same topic at least twice
before, but #13 at Chechessee Creek does this.  My tee shot
landed about 12-15 feet on the front left of the green (and I
don't put a lot of spin on the ball), and the ball slowly started
moving backwards, off the green into the fairway, and it took
a sudden left turn into the front bunker:

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd Cole,

Why would you expect a short hitter or an old geezer to get home in two on a long uphill par 4 ?

Why wouldn't I? I am one. Getting to be both soon. I'm used to rolling the ball on to the green.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The best example of this feature I have ever seen is at Royal Melbourne..not that I hvae ben there but just from watchnig on the box.
For those who do not know, we will hvae rthe opportunity to see this course on tv again in the next few weeks for the co sanctioned Heineken event.

[JESII]

Patrick

Seminole is the most difficult recovery course I have seen. From the standpoint of actually getting fairly ordinary looking bunker shots onto the green, it can be near impossible if they are firm, fast and the wind is blowing a little.

Did you have any of these factors?

Did the flooding from this fall's hurricanes leave any effects?


I am no expert, but I was under the impression this REPELLING GREEN construction philosophy was a Donald Ross staple, any thoughts on that. Doesn't Pinehurst have similar characteristics (although not always into a bunker)?

Jim

[Jimmy Muratt]

Pat,

I love this feature as well and it's a design element that really needs a course that plays firm and fast to take advantage of it.  

The best example that I've seen of it is at the Kingsley Club.  It is both extremely fun and frustrating to watch balls that are miss-hit catch a contour on the green or fairway and collect down into a bunker.  

The margin for error on some shots is very small if you take the aggressive approach, as it should be.  During my last round at Kingsley, I was playing #13 (the short par 4) and the hole was cut just over the front right bunker.  With my approach, I hoped to use a ridge about 20 feet behind and to the left of the hole to feed it down.  I hit my approach about 2 feet too far and it stayed on the ridge.  I then proceeded to hit my putt into the bunker.  I played a bad shot and was penalized, I went from a possible birdie to a quick double!

Here are a few pics at Kingsley that show some collection areas into bunkers:

#2, if short, left or right, your ball will feed into a bunker or down the hill to the right.


#3, the rolls in the fairway magnify misplaced tee shots and feed them into bunkers or the rough.  You can also somewhat see the bunker just short of the green that is a magnet for golf balls.


#8, short par 4, approaches pulled or short will collect into the left greenside bunker.


#16, redan par 3 where any slightly pulled approach finds it's way into this bunker.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have not heard of Kingsley before, it looks like great place to play.
I just looked at their website, what a pretty palce to play.
Any comments on the overall course?

[Doug Wright]

I've always liked the green and greenside feature that feeds a ball hit to the perimeter of a green, down into a nearby bunker.

At what other courses do these features flourish ?

What architects enjoyed incorporating them into their designs ?

And, do any modern day architects use these features as an integral component of their designs ?

Pat,

Nicklaus used this feature for several greens at Castle Pines GC. The hole one sees it evidenced watching The International on TV is the left greenside bunker at the par 3 16th, but he also has similar bunkers on the uphill par 4 fifth and sixth holes as well. I didn't like this feature the first couple of times I played there, but I appreciate it more now--better where, as at Castle Pines, it's used sparingly IMO.

I haven't seen Nicklaus use this feature on the few other of his courses I've played, but maybe others on here who know his courses have.

[Jay Cox]

I have not heard of Kingsley before, it looks like great place to play.
I just looked at their website, what a pretty palce to play.
Any comments on the overall course?

Ran has profiled it, and his words capture the course much better than I could.  Jimmy Murratt, those are excellent pics, especially of #8.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Jay,

#8 is a great golf hole.  Off the tee, you can either play aggressively over the first set of fairway bunkers, this leaves a ticklish uphill pitch to a terrific green complex.  The conservative play is to lay up off the tee with a long iron or fairway wood which leaves you with a full wedge in.  Here are two more pics:

[ed_getka]

Michael,
  Kingsley is one of my favorite golf courses. I make a trip up there every year to play Crystal Downs and Kingsley. The front nine is as good as anything I have ever played, and the back side isn't bad either. There are lots of posts in the archives, but I would be happy to talk to you ad nauseum about Kingsley Club. 415 353-1565

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Patrick

Seminole is the most difficult recovery course I have seen. From the standpoint of actually getting fairly ordinary looking bunker shots onto the green, it can be near impossible if they are firm, fast and the wind is blowing a little.

Did you have any of these factors?

It was WINDY, the greens weren't fast but they were moderately firm.[/color]

Did the flooding from this fall's hurricanes leave any effects?

The golf course is in fine shape.

Most noticeable are the trees at the northwest border of the property that were knocked down, revealing a series of yellow mid to low rise buildings.  But, I thought the golf course looked great.  It could probably use some additional sunshine, warmth and wind, but overall, I thought it was great, just a little damp.[/color]

I am no expert, but I was under the impression this REPELLING GREEN construction philosophy was a Donald Ross staple, any thoughts on that. Doesn't Pinehurst have similar characteristics (although not always into a bunker)?
This feature is different from the feature created by Ross's crowned or umbrella like greens.  These are inverted features, troughs that are fed by the greens and their surrounds, and they in turn feed balls further down the slopes, into the bunkers.  Likewise, bunker shots that don't quite reach the putting surface are returned to the bunkers, and approaches hit long usually find these feeding troughs.

I think the effectively reduce the size of a green, especially when the wind is blowing.  Large targets, like the 17th green are actually much smaller, in practice, due to these features.

In addition to being physical hazards, I think they also serve to break the player's will.
[/color]

[JESII]

Patrick

I am no expert, but I was under the impression this REPELLING GREEN construction philosophy was a Donald Ross staple, any thoughts on that. Doesn't Pinehurst have similar characteristics (although not always into a bunker)?
This feature is different from the feature created by Ross's crowned or umbrella like greens.  These are inverted features, troughs that are fed by the greens and their surrounds, and they in turn feed balls further down the slopes, into the bunkers.  Likewise, bunker shots that don't quite reach the putting surface are returned to the bunkers, and approaches hit long usually find these feeding troughs.

I think the effectively reduce the size of a green, especially when the wind is blowing.  Large targets, like the 17th green are actually much smaller, in practice, due to these features.

In addition to being physical hazards, I think they also serve to break the player's will.
[/color]

Now I understand why nobody else brought up what I thought was so obvious, they all understood the question.

I agree with your statement here about the course having the ability to break a players will after witnessing reasonable to good shots funnel off a green into a bunker.

What green(s) at Seminole have these inverted troughs you mention? I thought most of the greens were, as you describe above, "crowned or umbrella like" with a large number of bunkers around the greens for balls to roll into when they were "REPELLED" from the green.

Jim

[TEPaul]

JESII;

I can guarantee that Seminole's greens were not designed by Donald Ross with crowns or umbrella shapes to them. If they're getting that way now it has to be because of constant cycles of regrassing or topdressing over the years. Don't forget that Seminole closes every May and doesn't open again until the following fall. A lot of stuff has gone on with those greens over the years in that down time.

[JESII]

TEP

I was quoting Pat Mucci Jr in regards to the "crown and umbrella" shaping, and I am sure you understand what we are talking about. You may use different terminology, but the effect of balls moving away from the center of the green and eventually off the green is used throughout Seminole and my impression is that that design practice was widely used by Donald Ross. Do you agree?

What happens in the summers at Seminole? I was under the impression that when they regrassed 6 or 7 years ago they used laser surveying to rebuild the greens identicle to what they had been. Are there instances or examples of recontouring on the greens?


Jim

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