Ellis Maples-Underappreciated Master Architect

[Bryan_Pennington]

Scott,

While outsiders may think of NC golf as Pinehurst, I think we, as NC insiders, need to educate outsiders on the excellent golf outside of Pinehurst.  My previous post was to point out that many of the excellent courses in NC (many in the West) are private and are not easy to play (not impossible, but not easy unless you are Dunlop White).  Linville CC (recently refurbished), Elk River, Linville Ridge, Charlotte CC, Roaring Gap, and Grandfather Mtn. are wonderful courses but have fairly restrictive guest policies.  There are also many other courses in NC that also have restrictive guest policies (Old Chatham and Eagle Point).  Hopefully you will have the opportunity to play the Western courses as I think it will, if not change, improve your opinion of NC golf.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've played Old Chatham and Old North State (mentioned in your earlier post) and about 15 other private clubs in NC.  Access is not my primary concern now, time and hallpasses are.

I have a hunch that there's another 'hidden gem' in NC that has 'Lehigh' disease.  Lehigh in PA was 'undiscovered' if you wish, meaning it wasn't on the radar/raters' lists to play and consider for ratings.  A few here pushed it, it got seen by raters, and voila!, it makes GW's Top 100 Classical List, and probably will make GD's next Best in State list.  Same goes with Old Town in W-S.  I have a hunch that if enough raters saw it, it would get ranked somewhere, at least on the Best in State list.  This is the same course that Maxwell considered on par with Augusta as any course in the South.

The same goes with Raleigh CC.  I bet if a few saw it, it would at least make the Best in State list.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Raleigh CC is a great course to play.  I can only hope they are able to absorb a fairly large financial burden before it forces them to sell.  It would make a great municipal course for Raleigh, but I doubt the City would maintain the course to the standards it deserves.

[Lynn Shackelford]

Bryan
Why is Raleigh CC selling or contemplating selling?

B. Crosby

Shipyard Plantation in Myrtle Beach has 27 holes.  18 by George Cobb, very solid holes.  The 3rd 9 was added by Willard Byrd.  Only played it once but I felt is was badly lacking compared to the other 18.  Bryd's courses in Myrtle are very playable, but certainly not exciting.

[BCrosby]

Lynn -

I had heard heard that Byrd's courses at Myrtle Beach (I think there are a couple) are not very good. I haven't play any of them and I'll take you word on the one you played.

But he did The Atlanta CC (former site of the BellSouth Classic and loved by many good, local golfers) and a pretty good 18 at Cherokee, also in Atlanta. Both have since been remodeled. But they are good routings on hilly tracts. Maybe Byrd's talent showed itself only on hilly terrain. Don't know.

Bob

[ian]

B Crosby and Rick Noyes,

Thank-you for your insights, do you have any more? I am interested to learn more about Ellis.

Thanks,

Ian

[Steve Lang]

maples family favorites so far around southern pines, nc

ellis'
woodlake

dan's
the pit
longleaf
little river

can't remember any others right now..

as others have said, fun courses, laid over and through the terrain well,.. they bring you back over the years.. we've always considered these for golf week pics over the last 23 years.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Lynn,

Raleigh CC completed a major course renovation in which they complete refurbished the greens, bunker, tee boxes and fairways.  The course renovation was in anticipation of the Buy.Com Carolina Classic coming for 3 years to RCC.  Overall, the course renovation was excellent and the old Ross is once again a very solid course.  

With the course renovation, Buy.Com exposure and general economic upturn in the late 90's, RCC decided to take on a major facilities renovation.  RCC completely rebuilt its clubhouse, dining facilities, locker rooms, pool and pool house.  The second round of renovation combined with the expenses incurred with the course renvoation required RCC to assume a fairly large amount of debt (rumors have the remainning course debt at $1.2MM and the facility renovation at $3.8MM for total debt of $5MM).  

RCC has always been a golf first membership with very little, if any, emphasis on "social" aspects.  The club is located in a less desirable part of town which has always limited the "social" appeal of RCC.  It appears RCC tried to make facility changes in an attempt to increase membership and change (or increase) the social appeal of the club.  Unfortunately, their timing was very poor and the club has struggled to gain (actually maintain) members.  Consequently, the financial pressure of the debt might be the ultimate reason RCC is forced to sell its property.  It would be very unfortunate as the golf course is absolutely a treat to play and is maintained in great condition.  Hopefully RCC will be able to work out some agreement or generate sufficient capital internally to solve their financial woes.  

[Rick_Noyes]

Lynn,

Shipyard Plantation is in Hilton Head.  Willard Byrd has done some work in Myrtle Beach.  He has one of the courses at Sea Trail.  The other two are by Rees and Dan.

Interesting note on the Maples course at Sea Trail.  The road for the new causeway over the Intercoastal Waterway cuts through the par-4 8th.  This causeway has been held up in courts for about 10 years.  An appraiser came and talked to us about the case and said that it was the oldest case in NC still on the docet and the judge wants it resolved.  It was mostly held up for environmental concerns, the locals don't really want the causeway to happen.  At any rate, the appraiser was hired to determine the value of the course with the 8th hole as is and it's value after a re-design to accommodate the new road plus the cost of the remodeling the hole.  Our understanding is that the Maples course is the favorite of those that play Sea Trail, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Ian, and others interested,

Our website, danmaples.com, has a complete Maples family history.  Check it out.

Regards,

Rick

[Scott_Burroughs]

RCC is also trying to attract new members by having low initiation fees, financing, etc., and not having food/beverage minimums.  Where they get you is high monthly dues.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Scott,

I think RCC has changed course on the high monthly fees and gone back to more normal monthly fees in an attempt to keep members and attract new members.  I know RCC fired their Head Professional and Director of Golf in an attempt to reduce expenses (I do not know what, if anything happened to the superintent or staff).  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bryan,

As of today (on their web site, no less, dated today), their monthly dues are still $395 a month.  That's close to $5K a year.  That's a high dues amount to me, more in the range of nicer clubs with 2 or more courses.  I doubt any club in the Triangle has dues that high, perhaps North Ridge, w/2 courses.  Even TPC@Wakefield isn't that high.

With $395 a month, someone who plays once a week is spending $100 a round.  I've considered dropping my membership, becuase my annual dues are "just" $2000 a year, and I don't play nearly enough to warrant it.  I could spend 1/3 that amount just coming out and paying per play w/a member.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Rick

Thanks for the correction on Shipyard.  I knew it was wrong when I read the post after it was posted, just too lazy to correct it.

I remember showing it (Shipyard) one time to American Golf owner David Price.  He was visiting Hilton Head when it was having many financial problems.  The numbers there were very strong, and the asking price around $9 million.  He looked at the small clubhouse and said "this isn't a $9 million dollar place."  I tried to explain that the location and course made for a great destination for the golfers.  Anyway, American Golf bought it 3 years later for about $14 million.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Scott,

In late '02, RCC increased dues to something near $550 per month.  The thought process was to vastly reduce all expenses to members (beers $1.00, carts $6.00, buffet lunch $5.50, etc.).   The club was basically trying to capture a fixed amount of revenue regardless of club usage in an attempt to generate cash flow.  The resulting backlash from the dues increase actually caused RCC to lose members so the club decreased dues as much as possible.  While $395 is not cheap, it is near North Ridge, CCC, and other local clubs (and much less than clubs in Charlotte).  

I think RCC is willing to try anything to find the proper mix between membership and revenue.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bryan,

Thanks for the info.  $550 a month is pushing it.  Only the membership at CCC can afford that (and all the 'Canes players who are members at RCC)!  

[Bill_McBride]

Devil's Knob at Wintergreen VA is a wild mountain course with occasionally unputtable greens (4 putts not unusual) and some really stout par 4's.  It's too narrow in some corridors, with crazy bounces down slopes into trees and worse, but overall an entertaining round.  One funny thing about it is that it's so high you can occasionally play in a foggy mist.  

[Bernie Bell]

Of possible interest at the link is an account of a March 1, 1960 presentation to an industry meeting.  "Summary of Talk by Mr. Ellis Maples on Golf Course Design and Construction." 


https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/matnl/article/1960apr.pdf
 “Golf courses are layed out and designed to furnish a playing yardage of from say 6,600-7,000 yards from championship tees and 6,000-6,600 yards for the regular tees, and say 5600-6000 yards for the short course.  I have found that many men players would prefer to play the short course.  This has proven true at Pinehurst N.C., where their championship #2 course wasn't popular at all with the regular golfer until short tees were installed giving a playing yardage of about 5900 yards.  This fine course is now the most popular of the four layouts at Pinehurst.”