[Greg Holland]

Recently, I read an article with the above title.  Yet, I have found very little information about Ellis Maples.  He finished Raleigh CC (Ross's last course), designed over 60 courses (primarily in NC, SC, GA, TN and Mid-Atlantic), including the highly regarded CCNC-Dogwood and Grandfather Mtn. GC, as well as Forest Oaks, Bermuda Run, Deep Springs CC, Pinehurst No. 5 and Whispering Pines CC.  

The only discussion I have seen about his style is in the above referenced article in Triad Golf, which stated Ellis was of the "Donald Ross school,which includes designing courses for all golfers."

It also quoted Ellis from a newspaper article about his design philosophies, in which he offered the following ideas:
"I first consider how a man has to walk a course to play it,"
..."You consider the desirability of the location and make it a point to eliminate blind par-3 holes. Make them so you play a 3-iron and up and with slightly sloping greens that hold a shot. I try to make my par-5s sufficiently difficult, tight fairways with bunkers."

His son, Dan Maples, was quoted as saying Ross and Ellis "both taught me to use the natural beauty of the land to create golf holes of real character, as well as challenge the golfer."

Anyone have more insight, thoughts or experience with Ellis Maples courses?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Don't forget Keith Hills' original course, which is a good  layout.

I've heard that Deep Springs is a hidden gem and CCNC-Dogwood is a bit overrated.

Raleigh CC, which, make no mistake, is very much a Ross, is an excellent and unheralded design.

[Greg Holland]

I, too, have heard that CCNC is over-rated.  Even still, Doak gave it a 6, and Golf Digest rates it and Grandfather in the top 4 courses in NC.  Surely, someone can comment on Maples' style and the architectural/strategic merit of his courses.

[A.G._Crockett]

I have played both Forest Oaks and Deep Springs, and enjoyed both a great deal, although at the time (late summer) that I played Forest Oaks the condiitoning wasn't good.  Deep Springs is indeed a hidden gem.
I know the thread isn't about Dan Maples, but I have enjoyed all of the courses of his that I have played.  There are a number in the Myrtle Beach area, though they tend to be somewhat less publicized.  
At the risk of oversimplification, I would say that both father and son are (were) traditionalists.  You do not get the impression of massive earth moving to create the golf course, and the courses are playable yet demanding.  All in all, courses that would be valued by the people on this site, though not visually arresting and pictured frequently in golf magazines.

[austin]

Scott and GregH:

Why would you even comment (expecially negatively) about a course (CCNC-Dogwood) that you apparently have never seen based on what you have "heard". Such comments add nothing of value to the discussion. I, for one, am not interested in what you have heard.  Rather, I would like to hear your comments on courses that you have actually seen. Besides, CCNC-Dogwood is overated by whom? It is not ranked in the top 100 by any prominent publication. Almost all courses (except Pine Valley) are overrated by somebody. PVGC can not be over rated!

BTW, CCNC-Dogwood just may be one of the four best courses in NC, especially since a few improvements were implemented by Art Hills three years ago.

There is nothing wrong with remaining silent on a topic if you can not add value.

One man's opinion.

Austin

[Bryan_Pennington]

Austin, I would whole heartly agree with your comments on CCNC-Dogwood.  I have had the good fortune to play 20+ times over the past 10 years (thanks to my friends who are members and reluctently let me through the gates).  The course was an excellent layout prior to A. Hill's touch up.  The touch up allowed several bunkers to be rebuilt, green size restored, some minor bunker and tee repositioning to allow for today's distances, and most importantly, replace worn fairways and greens.  Dogwood is a very pleasing course visually but not a stunning beauty (hard to be stunning in Pinehurst), but the back 9 is one of the most challenging 9 holes you can play, period.  One or two of the holes taken individually are world class, but taken together (really starts on #7) the holes are wonderfully well thought out and require every shot in the bag (plus some you do not have).  I can not see how CCNC is overrated given the praise it receives year after year from local NC raters (NC Business Leader) and national raters.  Since you can not enter the property to view the course without a member, this is truely a course you need to see/play before judging.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Austin,

OK, I'll preface my post with this:  From several people on this board, whose opinions I value, CCNC-D is supposedly a bit overrated.  CCNC-D WAS on the GD Top 100 list for about 30 years, from the list's inception in the late 1960's through 1997-1998.  It currently sits as GD's 4th highest-rated course in NC, right behind Top 100 Grandfather, so it's just outside the Top 100, which still would make it rated (by GD) as one of the top 1.1% of all U.S. courses.

Also, GolfWeek had CCNC-D rated in it's Top 100 Modern list as recently as 1998.

I'd say it's been rated highly by prominent publications.

The opinions by others on this board about CCNC-D have been spelled out before, of which a simple search of this site would have yielded these results.  This topic has been covered before, as has seemingly 75% of new topics, which wouldn't need to be brought up if people did their homework.

Also, 'improvements made by Art Hills' means very little to me, as far as making a course better.  Art Hills get generally low marks by most on this board whose opinions I value.

And besides, Ellis Maples AND Willard Byrd designed CCNC-D.


One man's facts,
Scott

[austin]

Scott:

Here is my point.  If, as you say, several people on this board think a course is over rated, why not pause a while and let them speak up from first-hand observations. Their comments may be more instructive than a generalized second hand observation by someone who has not seen the course. One gets the impression that you (and a few others) simply can not resist commenting, regardless of the topic.

About Art Hills.  I too, have been unimpressed by some of Art's work. However, I think it is unfair to him, or any other architect, to presume that his work on a specific job lacks merit (without having seen it) just because others "whose opinion you value" did not like his work elsewhere. I am convinced that almost all architects are capable of doing good work, at least occasionally, especially one with the experience of Art Hills.

O.K., so you have the facts on the history of CCNC-Dogwood's rankings. You apparently have no facts about the course itself, just the second-hand opinions of others.  I know that you have travelled far and played many courses. I look forward to more of your first-hand observations on those courses.


Austin

[A.G._Crockett]

Austin,
Try to relax...

[Greg Holland]

Austin --
You wrote, "BTW, CCNC-Dogwood just may be one of the four best courses in NC, especially since a few improvements were implemented by Art Hills three years ago."

Can you tell us why you think so?  Particularly, what about Maples' design/routing do you like?

[BCrosby]

A side note on Ellis Maples.

About 10 years after the Athens CC (Ross, 1925) opened, the owner of the course, who knew very little about golf, asked Ross if he might send his son to Pinehurst to learn about course maintenance. That son is now in his nineties, but he related to me that his father put him on the train and Ellis Maples met him at the Pinehurst train station. He stayed with the Maples family for about a month while he learned the trade. (Maples was the head greenskeeper at Pinehurst at the time.) Some seven decades later, he still talks about Maples being a kind and brilliant teacher. He continued to call him for advice on the Athens CC course until Maples's death.

Apparently this arrangement was not unique. My friend thought that Maples probably had many similar tutor/tutee relationships with greenskeepers, especially at Ross courses that couldn't afford follow-up visits from Ross himself.

Bob

P.S. I've always thought that Willard Byrd was/is  underappreciated. Anyone else feel the same? Not much of his stuff left in the ATL area (The Atlanta CC and Cherokee and have both been thoroughly worked over), but he is too quickly dismissed by many. I liked his courses.

[CHrisB]

I've played 10 Ellis Maples courses: 2 in Virginia (Olde Mill and Lexington) and 8 in North Carolina (Forest Oaks, Deep Springs, Cedar Rock, Walnut Creek, Indian Valley, Boone, Bermuda Run, and Keith Hills).  To me, the Ellis Maples courses I've played are above-average tracks that are quite pleasant to play, not boring but not eye-popping either.  They're just...nice.

[BTW, I don't rate Deep Springs any higher than I would Cedar Rock, Forest Oaks, Bermuda Run, Lexington, and especially Olde Mill--DS is a pleasant-enough course, but the greens are too big-and-blah for my tastes, it has a couple of awkward sharp doglegs, and the finishing stretch of holes ( 16-18 ) is weak in my opinion.  Still fun and worth checking out for yourself, though.]

My favorite EMaples holes are some of his par 5's, particularly those that utilize the tumbling NC terrain well like #10 at Boone GC!, #11 at Lexington, #9 at Forest Oaks, #9 at Deep Springs, and #5 at Olde Mill!.  On each of these holes, the the landing spot of the tee shot is of critical importance, as balls landing on different sides of the fairway could end up miles apart, with one having the chance to reach the green in two and one forced to hit a layup to a tight landing area.  So it's not just "bombs away" from the tee; rather, you have to try to catch the right portion of the fairway to gain the maximum advantage.

His greens are usually fairly large, and though sloping and quick at times, aren't spectacular.  Again...nice.  His bunkers are relatively benign and usually well-placed, often with flashed-up faces; again, nothing punishing, just nice.

But the one nine-hole stretch that goes beyond just nice for me is the front nine at Olde Mill GC in Laurel Fork, VA (not far from the Blue Ridge Parkway).  Just a wonderful collection of holes, with a stunning routing, sometimes rapid changes in elevation, and a serene mountain setting.  In addition to the par-5 5th mentioned above, the opening tee shot into the valley, the knob-to-knob shot of the par-3 8th (far and away my favorite EMaples par 3--unlike any other of his I've seen), and the par-4 9th with its drastically elevated green are worth checking out.  The back nine is pretty good, with another tumbling par-5 finisher, but not quite in the same league as the front.  Of all the EMaples courses I've played, Olde Mill is the only one I'd bother showing anyone in this DG, and I'd be quite interested to see what the reaction would be.

[Rick_Noyes]

Glad to see someone else thinks Ellis is underappreciated.  But I am biased.  Seems that everytime we get a call about one of Ellis courses, Dan has a story about when he was out there as a kid.  Dan truly grew up in this business.

Of the courses I've seen and/or played I agree with the courses mentioned and will add:  Chatmoss is Martinsville, Va.
and Walnut Creek in Goldsboro and the Country Club of South Carolina usually gets high marks.  Although I have not seen it, I understand that Olde Mill Golf Club in Groundhog Mtn. Va. is worth the trip.

Of the collaborative efforts of Dan and Ellis I like Devil's Knob in Wintergreen, VA, Keith Hills and Ford's Colony.  I regret that most times when Bermuda Run and Pinehurst #5 are mentioned they are referred to as "condo-golf".  That's really a shame.  Because I can assure you that Ellis had nothing to do building the condos.

Dan has 11 courses in the Myrtle Beach area.  This may be a record for a concentration of one architect, I don't know.  I think one of the philosophies handed down is that we're not trying to beat the golfer over the head.  It's supposed to be fun.

Ellis died in 1984, which was sometime before I came to work for Dan.  But with Dan as the architect and his brothers as his shapers, Ellis' philosophies of golf course architecture endure.

Rick

[A.G._Crockett]

BCrosby,
Funny that you wrote your P.S., because Willard Byrd occurred to me earlier when I was writing about the Maples' as a somewhat similar architect.  Byrd's courses are very traditional, very playable, and probably don't get much attention.  Byrd has (and I think continues to design) a number of courses in the Myrtle Beach area, generally on the lower end of the greens fee scale for the area, but among the most playable.  In this regard, he is much like Ellis and Dan Maples, I think.

[Austin]

A.G.

You would be amazed if you knew how relaxed I am.

GregH.

Why would you want to know what I think of the course? Probably some those that you and Scott have heard from would have more "valued" opinions on the course.  The fact is that I was not intending to defend the course as much as I was questioning the value of second hand criticism when first hand observations seem to be available.

Frankly, I am not sure which elements of the course are attributable of Mr. Maples. However, I do think the course is better now than before the Hills project for two main reasons. First, the G2 bent offers a much improved putting surface. Secondly, Art's changes offer the opportunity to create a more challenging test for better players while actually playing easier for the higher marker. The club has a wide range of players ranging from some very fine players to many older players. By moving many greens closer to hazards, there is greater risk for the player hoping to have a birdie putt.  At the same time there is now more bailout areas on several holes which make the course more fun for the player who is willing to settle for a bogey and a chance at an up-and-down par.

I think that is what the club wanted to make their members happy and still allow them to host some regional tounaments.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The reason I mentioned others' opinions is the same reason many new threads get virtually ignored, because the subject has been brought up before and many don't feel like wasting their time repeating something they said 6 months ago.  I was adding others' value who might otherwise ignore the subject.  Also, Greg confirmed what he had heard about the course as well.  It ain't just me.

I must have touched a nerve by calling CCNC-D "a bit overrated" (which is hardly trashing the place), because it didn't seem to matter as much that I referred to others' opnions of Deep Springs as being positive (remember, I wasn't calling CCNC-D bad, just "a bit overrated").

Do you not value others' opinions?  I have not played CCNC-D, even though it's just 1.5 hours from my house and an occasional poster here is a member there.  My travel time to play other courses is very valuable and limited, so I must heed others' opinions to form a basis on whether or not I want to spend that time to play there.  I certainly would like to play the course someday, as it's probably the best course in the Pinehurst area that I haven't played.

And on another note, being 4th best in NC is not that big of a deal.  NC is quite overrated when it comes to golf, and I've played perhaps 80 courses in the state to come up with that opinion.  Even highly-rated Wade Hampton is considered overrated by most here who've played it, even one who's a staunch Fazio defender (he told me in person).  Neighboring SC is a much better state for high quality golf.  I've played perhaps 30 in SC to come up that.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Forgot about Olde Mill.  Yes, it's a fun course as well, with a good number of treeless holes for being in the mountains.

Tee shot on #10 will tighten your, uh, 'grip'.  Elevated tee, with long carry over water, to landing area surrounded by water on left and far right.  3rd hole (I think) is a tough Cape hole.  8th or 9th hole was just plain goofy.  Par 5 with mid-iron off the tee, if I recall.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Scott,

Have you played Grandfather Mountain, Linville, Linville Ridge, Charlotte CC, Elk River, Old North State, Eagle Point, and Old Chatham.  I know you have not played CCNC-Dogwood (and I assume you have not played the newly redesigned CCNC-Cardinal).  I assume you have played #2.  I think the problem with golf in NC is that the best courses, excluding #2 (and is #2 really public at $300) are very private.  NC has excellent golf, but not excellent access.

[Austin]

Scott:

Peace!

I agree that the top courses in NC don't compare favorably with the top courses in SC. As in most things, SC is superior. However, I can't agree that NC courses (as a group) are overrated. I think only 4 NC courses are ranked among the 200 that GOLFWEEK ranks as the best Modern and Classical courses. They are Pinehurst #2, Pine Needles, Wade Hampton, and Forest Creek. If you allow me some latitude with the numbers, that means that GOLFWEEK says that only 2% of Americs's Best courses are located in NC.  That hardly sounds like overrating. It is probably about right. In my view there is one great course in NC, a few other very good courses, and a lot of good ones.

[Hart Huffines]

Greg H raised a good question regarding the Dogwood at
CCNC.  The fact that CCNC was highly rated at one point
was due to the fact that it is and has been very difficult
from the back tees.  I think Golf Digest's list (which was
the original, right?) as based on the toughest courses in
the US.  The club was apparently willing to schmooze
the rating guests as well.

Unfortunately it does not have the same visual
beauty it had 15 to 20 years ago  due to changes in
the way the bunkers were presented.  However, given
the proper presentation, I can assure you it is a fair
and tough test of golf.  The work Mr. Hills did only made
it better conditioned and more playable for all of us-
exactly what he was asked to do.

The outing offers a nice balance of holes with several
longish two shotters and a good variety of par threes
and fives.  Probably no world class holes there, but
only a couple which arent well designed.  The finishing
par 5 18th does leave a lot to be desired but water
is in play frequently on the back and is very pretty.

Doak pretty much had it right.  But as a member Ilook
forward to lots more fantastic days there and I believe
as a test of golf it is only bettered by #2 in the area.
I like Forest Creek a lot but wait 30 years when the
housing is completed and see if it retains the same
character.  As far as others in NC, only Grandfather
and Wade Hampton would be above the three in Pinehurst.

[Hart Huffines]

Damn, sorry...  Forgot to ask GregH where
he saw the article on Maples. I would like to
read it myself.  Thanks.

[Dunlop_White]

"Underappreciated" .......I don't know?  But "understudied", most definitely!

There was Frank, then Ellis, and now Dan, all parts of the Donald Ross lineage. But, why the Ross flavor or the Ross style did not manifest itself more in the works of the Maples, many have always wondered? There business approach is said to have been comparable. Their draftsmanships were similar as well, as evidenced by assessing their sketches and routing plans. McGovern, who also worked with Ellis, likely infuenced him in this regard. Like Ross, Ellis Maples seemingly made good use of the natural features of the land and the routing.

But it was the countless facets of his architecture and design work that varied unmistakably from Ross.... (ie) bunkers with a little flare vs. bunkers with muscle (ie) bunkers which generally flash vs. bunkers with mostly flat bottoms (ie) many bunkers "at" the typical landing areas and "at" the green sites vs. many bunkers "before" the typical landing areas and just short of the green sites, ("cross" bunkers and "carry" bunkers).

Likely, Ellis Maples was influenced as much by the times as his heritage with the earthmoving technology and the RT Jones school of thought.

Ellis Maples has also "renovated" his share of courses in NC.
I dislike what he has done to a few Ross courses and one Perry Maxwell design.   But as a "restoration" conspirator, I must remind myself that Ellis Maples worked when very few clubs valued their original architectural integrity.   :-/

[Dunlop_White]

I love visiting CCNC, (a great club with a great membership and an excellent golf program run by Jeff Dodson), but I tend to agree with Scott Burroughs that Dogwood, the golf course, is overrated.

CCNC is cognizant of "ratings" since they entertain panelists twice a year during "raters days". Such is fair game for the local rankings as other clubs do the same. But the fact that still many other clubs do not promote their design in this fashion ( whether by choice or neglect ) may skew the results.

Holes no. 3 and 4 are the most memorable holes going out. Other holes on the front seem to get lost in the pines. The par 5's on the Back 9 are suspect as Hole 12 is off-balance. This hole eventually turns left while the bunkers align the right side. Typically, bunkers add strategical balance to the movement of a hole, or at the very least, they are used to turn a golfer away from the inside, shorter, more aggressive line of play. It doesn't make sense! And Hole no. 18 is an awkward finish.

Some protected green fronts and raised putting surfaces make the course ideal for the aerial game of the low handicapper while not being as receptive to the average golfer.

Finally, I cannot comprehend the overabundance of catch basins which inundate the terrain. Conspicuous appearing dips and swales have also been carved out of the surface to direct water toward these drain caps. Check out the obvious creative landforms at Cardinal as well? (Art Hills must specialize in drainage?) But I question whether it was necessary, as the sandy soil at Pinehurst should provide adequate "sub-surface" drainage. Likewise, the "surface" drainage which exists, should be enhanced by the natural rolloffs and wash-outs into the varying ponds and lakes. Drainage is very important, but in my opinion it detracts from the appearance in this case.

On the other hand, the par 3's are great, and most would agree that holes 13 through 16 rival the best four hole stretch most in the Carolinas.

 

[Ranking Roger]

Austn-
A friend of mine will be playing CCNC in March. Am I overstepping my bounds by letting him know that some GCAera,
such as yourself, like the course? Lighten' up.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bryan,

I've played 11 of GD's top 25 in the state, 4 of which are private.  Austin summed it up best, in terms of NC being overrated, in that there is only one great course and a good number of the rest are very good.  Quite a number of other states have several great courses.  NC just isn't 'top heavy' to be considered highly rated (in how I see 'highly rated' to mean).

When people think of NC golf, they think of Pinehurst.  GD rated it very high as a golf destination, but the truth of the matter is, Pinehurst is like the rest of the state, one great course and several very good ones, but nothing else that truly stands out.  If I had to pick, I'd choose Tobacco Road as the 2nd best course in the Sandhills (of the ones I've played, about 18 in all), while others would call me crazy, saying Pine Needles, Forest Creek, CCNC-D, Pinehurst CC's other 'top' courses, etc. are better.

I've played a number in the state, but my shortfall is the western part of the state, where I've played no courses west of Advance/Clemmons.

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