NJ

[T_MacWood]

What is the second best course in NJ?

[pdrake]

Pine Valley..........

[Steve Mann]

tom-

for me, it is somerset hills!  if i could be a member at any course in NJ other than PVGC it would be that one.  hands down!  just enough challenge to keep you honest but very playable as an everyday members golf course.

sm

[TEPaul]

The second best for me would be either Plainfield or Somerset Hills.

[Cory Lewis]

I would actually go with Pine Valley too.  I'll never get to play it so I prefer to tell myself that Plainfield is better.  Plainfield has some of the best greens I've ever played and the restoration continues to make it better, I don't believe there is a weak hole on the course.  One of the best Ross courses in the country.

[T_MacWood]

Is Plainfield as good as Inverness, Canton Brookside, Pine Needles, Salem or Franklin Hills?

Cory
What about those three mundane holes on the back nine in the far corner of the property.

There is also mismash of styles...Ross and RTJ. Perhaps Gil will fix that.

My vote would go to Somerset Hills. After that Plainfield or Hollywood.

[John Gosselin]

Tom, who designed those three holes? I love Plainfield, but always a let down on that stretch. I have heard different stories; the most believable was that they were added by Cornish so they could build a driving range near the clubhouse.

[Cory Lewis]

Tom,

You got me there, I forgot about 13-15, they are pretty average holes when compared to the rest of the course.  IMHO Plainfield is better than most of the Ross courses I've played including Salem, Pine Needles, and Aronimink.  #2 is the only Ross I've played that is clearly better.  

[Steve Lapper]

Plainfield, easily!

As much as I remain a fan and advocate of the sportiness and pleasurability of Somerset Hills, PCC is hands down a more complete and sturdy test of all shots.

PCC isn't that much less sporty or fun than SH, but the demands on the golfer are far greater, more frequent and with lower margins of error. It's long par fours and fives are among the state's best and that featue alone likely stands it alone in a runner's up spot to PV.

In most other states, PCC would easily rank #1.

[T_MacWood]

I don't know who designed the three holes, but I have little doubt the holes they replaced, on the other side of the clubhouse, were better. And as a result the course was superior back then. I'm not real crazy about some of the modern bunkering as well. What is the opinion (and history) of the fairway pond hazard?

Steve
No doubt Plainfield is a sturdier test than Somerset Hills (as well as Cypress Point, Maidstone and Fishers Island). But how much should difficulty count? Doesn't sporty translate to short, but more interesting and better architecture?

I was impressed with Plainfield, but in its present form I'm not sure its on the short list of Ross's best courses. If it were in Boston would it get the same attention?

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,

  No doubt difficulty is neither a sole determinant nor the heaviest of weights in measuring the total picture or rating. In fact, I prefer sportiness over difficulty in most every case.

  What is unique about PCC v. SH is that PCC has better examples of bigger, or championship level, architecture. It's smaller or shorter holes (like 10 and 11) are stellar but SH's are clearly better. It's par fours and par fives absolutely outweigh, in every measure including sportiness, SH's by a wide margin. Other than #6, 7, and 11 & 15, SH isn't a very interesting or unique example of par 4 & 5 architectures. Sh's par 3's are (and I've said it here before) quite possibly the best collection outside of PVGC or CPC.

   IMHO, PCC is better than Salem or Aronimink and has better bones to boot...but as always, it's a matter of personal taste, and ultimately, that is the largest component of rating.

[Steve Mann]

tom-
being a boston guy i will weigh in.  plainfield is as good if not better than salem/winchester and charles river.  i think winchester gets little to no press in our area.  it is just as good, maybe a better test, than salem in IMHO.  if people can get past the opening hole the course gets stronger as you go.  the river is very good but just a notch below salem/winchester for me.  i am sure to be criticized by a few who post on here with that statement.  we will see!
sm

[pdrake]

I agree with Winchester being in the same league as PCC..........I really think Hollywood deserves some mention in NJ too

[GeoffreyC]

Palinfield is a clear 2nd.

I believe that Ross designed those three tunnel holes.

BV is correct about #12.  Its one of the best five pars in the whole country yet alone NJ and it would not exist if the 3 tunnel holes were not in play.

TM- Pine Needles isn't in the same class as PCC. I have not seen the other Ross examples you gave.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood asked ...

"Is Plainfield as good as Inverness, Canton Brookside, Pine Needles, Salem or Franklin Hills?"

I've played all of the ones you listed and only Inverness has the wherewithal to stay with Plainfield for the full duration. None of the others has the kind of unique topography, variety of holes and consistently high level green contours / shapes that Plainfield possesses.

As solid As PV is in the #1 position in the Garden State -- I firmly believe Plainfield holds the #2 position no less firm.

In regards to the "new" holes, I believe, were designed by Marty O'Laughlin a friend of Ross's. Clearly, the "new" holes do not fit the unique character but they are far from being seen as inferior.

To Plainfield's considerable credit you have such wonderful pacing of holes throughout the round. There is no "sameness" that often detracts from so many other pretenders to being a great course. I'm a big fan of the opening hole -- IMHO -- the 430 yard starter is truly well done -- and has become even more so with the work of Gil Hanse. The fairway bunker on the left side which was fomally out of play because of rough growth through the year is now back in play. The longer hitters face a range of decisions because even if one were to nail a tee shot the likelihood is you will be left with a blind shot of 100 yards to a green that is simply devilish.

I also believe the totality of the par-3's are among the 2-3 best in all of NJ with only Pine Valley and Forsgate / Banks competing for such a wide array of unique and dazzling differences.  

Let me also point out the finish is rather unique with two holes that dog-leg in opposite directions. The tee shot at the 17th is one of the most intimidating you can play in all of NJ. The slightest miscalculation can mean a quick DB or TB on the card.

I am not a huge fan of the 18th because it was never designed to be the closing hole. Nonetheless, it does require your full attention because you need to hug the corner of the dog-leg in order to leave you a modest length into a very tough green.

Plainfield gets very little attention outside the 50-miles radius of the NY metro area. Yes, it has hosted the US Amateur ('78) and the Women's Open ('87) and there were plans to host a Senior Open (since abandoned), but even with these events it simply has flown below the radar screen except for those who know different.

Plainfield was already a great course prior to the club's hiring of Gil Hanse. It has become even better one since and frankly I would rate it among my personal 25-35 courses in the United States.  

P.S. I would also add that the par-5 12th is one of the best par-5's you can play anywhere -- no less than Ben Crenshaw felt the same way when he carried out a 24-hour tour of the best holes on both sides of the pond for Golf Magazine a number of years ago). A superb hole with a range of options and a unique green with a rib cage that cuts from back to front and divides the green specatacularly.

[T_MacWood]

"There is no "sameness" that often detracts from so many other pretenders to being a great course."

Matt
How does 13 thru 15 effect your judgement of Plainfield? Why is Plainfield superior to Canton Brookside or Salem or Franklin Hills...do they possess a similar stretch of out of character holes?

Speaking of sameness...that is my main complaint with Forsgate. No doubt it posses a number outstanding holes, and some wild greens, but every green complex presents the same or similar picture...over and over. The routing is also on the mundane side, maybe a result of the property's demensions.

Geoffrey
Why is Plainfield better to Pine Needles?

[wsmorrison]

"Speaking of sameness...that is my main complaint with Forsgate. No doubt it posses a number outstanding holes, and some wild greens, but every green complex presents the same or similar picture...over and over."

Tom,
I had the exact same feeling from my one and only visit.  The bunkering around the greens seemed overly repetitive.  There were a number of fine holes but variety was severely limited.  

Sorry, gotta go back to the Eagles game.  GO EAGLES!

[Matt_Ward]

Tom said ...

"How does 13 thru 15 effect your judgement of Plainfield? Why is Plainfield superior to Canton Brookside or Salem or Franklin Hills...do they possess a similar stretch of out of character holes?

The 13th thru 15th are not at the same high octane level as the others at Plainfield -- that's not disputed by many and I'm not certainly going out on a limb in saying that.

Still, the challenges presented by the three holes is there. The 13th presents a very demanding tee shot. The play is down the left side because the entire right side offers trees too close for comfort. If you get hung up in the fairway bunker the approach to the green over water is problematic.

I will say that the green at #13 is frankly the easiest at Plainfield. If future efforts take place at Plainfield some sort of re-configuring of this green will be an added benefit.

The long par-3 14th is simply too long a hole for the green complex that exists there. When played at 225 yards and the pin cut near the front you have to deal with the elephant hump that will repel many approaches. Either the green can be softened -- which would be a pity -- or the hole should be played at no more than 200 yards.

I personally like the 15th -- the tee shot is fairly direct but it's the approach shot that has to be judged correctly. The green has a significant depth and I have seen many players over the years when playing the hole where they can up short. If you should miss to either side the recovery is also not assured.

In answering you last point -- I don't see the "new" holes diminishing the nature of what Plainfield provides. Do they provide any 'additional points' to the layout? Probably not. In regards to the other courses you mentioned -- I don't see them having the high level of detail and consistency that Plainfield provides even with the three "new" holes considered. They are fine layouts -- but I just don't see any of them having the kind of topography, variety of holes and exquisite green sites / contours that Plainfield consistently delivers.

Let me now speak about Forsgate in regards to your comments ...

You need to return to Forsgate and see what the new management has done. I don't know where you get off proclaiming Forsgate features in offering "sameness." That is incorrect and I would think someone of your background should know better.

The individual holes are truly different and unique. Assess for me the outstanding nature of the four par-3's at the Banks Course? The 3rd is a superb Eden -- the 7th a solid reverse redan type hole -- the 12th a delicious short hole with the horse-shoe type green and the 17th is undergoing a revitalization as a biaritz.

You also have the back-to-back par-5's at the 8th and 9th which I believe are no less equal in terms of design stature than the hype given to the final two at Baltusrol's Lower Course.

Let me also point out that the diversity of the par-4's is equally compelling. New tees were added at the 2nd and 18th holes, to name just two. You also have solid par-4's at the 10th and 11th -- completely different holes and first rate bunkering at both. Ditto the qualities of the 15th and 16th holes -- again -- vastly different styles and challenges.

Tom -- where is the "mundane" nature of the routing you proclaim? Have you played the course -- and in what year -- or did you simply come to this conclusion from looking at an aerial?

Forsgate / Banks Course is really underappreciated by a great many people -- many of whom happen to live in NJ. In my humble opinion -- Forsgate is a top ten layout in the Garden State because of what Banks achieved and what has been revitalized by new management.

[GeoffreyC]

TM

Plainfield is routed on at least as good or better property (although not sand based).  It has better variety from great short holes to great long holes. The par 5's at Plainfield are among the best anywhere.  Plainfield's greens are also to my taste better then Pinehurst #2 whcih have a sameness to them and I think they are a bit goofy with the new bent grass. As BV said, the first tunnel hole (13) has a blandish green but the other two are fine greens. Pine Needles is a nice course but Plainfield is a GREAT course.

[Jay Cox]

Does Baltusrol not even deserve a mention?

[Jerry Kluger]

Plainfield is incredible to me because it is on such a relatively small piece of property, you nearly always know that there is another hole nearby, yet the hole you are playing is so special that you never lose focus on the task at hand.  Even with the close feeling of the course you are never feel that the hole on the other side of the tree line is in any way simliar to the hole you are playing.  Then there are the greens and all the other features.  I am sorry but I just don't get that feeling with Baltusrol.

[GeoffreyC]

Jay- No - Baltusrol does not get a mention for #2 in NJ.  I put Somerset Hills ahead of Baltusrol as well.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom MacWood,

Mountain Ridge deserves consideration.
It's a wonderful Ross that is virtually unchanged.
It's also the competitive equal of all of the courses mentioned in NJ.

As to holes # 13, # 14 and # 15 at Plainfield, are they inferior to holes # 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 14, 16, 17 and 18 at Somerset Hills ?

I'd also like you or others to tell me what's wrong with those three holes.

Baltusrol Upper provides both interest and challenge as well.
Too many individuals only view the Lower in the context of
Championships and the back tees.  It's both fun and challenging from other tees.

The course with the most potential might be The Knoll, George Bahto's home course.

There are an inordinate number of good golf courses in NJ.

[T_MacWood]

Matt
Was the new managment installed in September.

The par-3's are fabulous...an outstanding set...and they possess some of the wildest greens anywhere. There are a number of strong individual holes, including the par-5's you mentioned, but there is repative nature to the course's green complexes. By the time you reach the back nine...you begin asking yourself...didn't I face a green very similar to this a few holes ago? The sameness is a weakness.

Regarding the routing, 13 of the holes run parallel to one another. 1,2 (out), 15, 16 (back), 17, 14 (out), 13, 18 (back), 10, 11, 12 (out), 8, 9 (back). A lot of parallelism, with the majority of holes running in one of two directions. And not dogleg in the bunch (5 has a little bend).

Pat
They are inferior (13, 14, 15) because they are out of character with the rest of the golf course. Not exactly exciting terrain as well.

Don't get me wrong, Plainfield is an excellent golf course. My question is, why is it considered superior to Canton Brookside, Salem, Pine Needles and Franklin Hills (or Scioto for that matter)?

[ian]

Where would Hollywood fit into this discussion?

I have not seen Plainfield or Somerset, but was curious to know if they are a bit better than Hollywood, or far better.

Thanks.