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George Pazin

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2005, 05:45:32 PM »
Or maybe I have butchered the whole thing.   ;D

Okay, you're making progress. :)

Would you say that hitting driver-wedge into every green is not "what golf's supposed to be all about"?

Would you say turning to your caddy and saying "what's the yardage", pulling the requisite club and hitting a drop and stop shot is "what golf's supposed to be all about"?

Golf is about getting the ball into the hole. Not how. No style points.

You are a closet dictator who wants everyone to be forced to hit certain shots! Congratulations on finally earning your Golf Digest rater wings! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Doug Siebert

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2005, 12:57:07 AM »
Re: the sleeper.  I think its stupid and a total non sequitor at a place like Rye.  I could totally see Pete Dye using it somewhere if he accidentally designed a hole with a wide open run up area in front of the green that's fast n firm, however ::)


But trying to "defend" against the Texas wedge is a silly idea.  If your friend plays one dimensionally, why does that bother you?  Unless the COURSE ITSELF forces one dimensionality on a player, I don't see it as a problem.  Your friend just lacks imagination.

And I think a lot of people who have posted here today had temporarily misplaced their imagination when they thought of this as purely an issue between wedge and putter.  There are other clubs in the bag that sometimes come in handy on less than full swings around the green!  When I'm on linksland, I'm hitting a lot of 3, 4 or 5i shots from 30-100 yards when the terrain encourages it.  I'm not afraid of hitting a full SW off rock hard linksland turf, but most of the time the wind gives that a much more random outcome than letting it have a few bounces on the way to the hole, so its not a smart play unless there's something in the way or some feature I want to land on.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

ForkaB

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2005, 05:16:14 AM »
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.  Some responses:

KBM--thanks for clarifying that what I meant was "higher cut" rather than "slightly rougher ground."  It's a maintenace thang.  Also, you are right that higher cuts on slopes come into play earlier in the round at Dornoch, particularly to the right of 2 and 5.  Then later at 10 and 18.  Also, however, and importantly, there are greens where putting from great distances is both practicable and thrilling, particularly 3, 9, 11, 12, 15 and 16.  Which lead to.....

.....Brian G--I never talked about "killing" the ground game, particulary in terms of any specific opponent.  As Tom IV (the Huckster) rightly perceived, much of the point of thread was about options and the fact (at least to me) that any course which allowed for/required any particularly shot (whether it be lob wedge or Texas wedge or whatever) was somehow lacking, when talking of "greatness."  Which takes us to bermuda......

.....which I played almost exclusively for the 2 years I lived in Florida, and which I came to admire for it's ability to test one's ability to read grain and execute full and partial swings perfectly, but which I found boring to the nth degree when related to the short game....

.....sorry, Brent...

....but kudos, Huckster.  You get a gold star, as does....

....Andy H., and......

....George P., who always seems to come around to my point of view, agonizingly slowly sometimes, but always, and ......

....Mike H., who sees the darker side of the paradox I was trying to explain in my original post.  My "shock and horror" was exactly relating to extending the "low sleeper" concept to something like billboards betgween you and the ball, or even windmills, but OOPS!, that has already been done at NGLA, no?

Of course I knew I could count count on my Captain of Vice from the GCA Ryder Cup, John "Tiger" B., who has arisen form his Pilates exercises to let us know that he actually raised this same question with the poohbahs at Rye last year and the answer was.........(imagine a Carnac imitation here......).........

........"We don't have a bloody clue! Now pass the Kummel!"

Which may be the answer to my initial question as to why Rye chose the embedded sleeper option.

If you look at Andy L's picture, that sleeper seems to be at the top of an old filled-in bunker.  Maybe, just maybe, that sleeper just arose one day, as the bunker fill subsided, and as a sliver.  Over time--say 20-30 years--the ground-fill subsided more and more and more sleeper was exposed, but it happened so slowly (and people intermittantly complaining were probably so plied with Kummel) that it was ignored, until you got to the situation today, where it does give pause for thought to the inveterate Texas wedger, who may have been lulled into a false sense of complaceny by previous holes, but now finds that he must loft the ball, even if so ever gently, or aim away from the hole.  "Shock!  Horror!"  Of the right kind.  Of the GCA kind.  Of the kind that tells you that variety and chance and challenge are some of the keys to great golf course architecture.  Even if it seems as goofy as a partially submerged railroad tie at Rye.......

TEPaul

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2005, 05:59:01 AM »
Rich:

First of all, I can't seem to find the photo of Rye you're referring to but in theory anyway putting something like a railroad tie in the line of a TW is about the dumbest thing I ever heard of. I always thought the general idea was to increase options although perhaps in such a way that most of them are in some form of "balance" or "equilibrium" so most players are never that sure which to choose!

But purposely taking one away by placing something like a railroad tie in the way??? That is the artifical, moralizing, "game mind of man" that Max Behr referred to and hated, if I ever heard it!

;)

TEPaul

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2005, 06:01:38 AM »
Rich:

How about if Rye occasionally ran a cart path, complete with curbs and all, right in front of a green or two? That should probably accomplish the same strategic purpose as that railroad tie, don't you think?   ;)

ForkaB

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2005, 09:18:43 AM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16322

Tom

Check out the picture in the intial post of the thread above and look to the lower left.

PS--don't dis Rye to much or too often.  They look at places like Merion and Gulph Mills as Hollywodd sets for "Desperate Housewives."  They once threw Margaret Thatcher out of the bar onto her big Tory butt in the parking lot, just because she didn't have the proper mix of chromosones.......

A_Clay_Man

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2005, 10:26:14 AM »
Don't putters have a degree of loft? Don't olde putters (the club) have more loft? Is that an upslope just prior to the frowning lumber? The height of that erroniously described "RR tie" is what? 4 inches. C'mon, DEAL with it, thinking about how stupid it is the easy way. Thinking your way around it, is the shot testing du jour, on Rye, please.

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2005, 12:17:20 PM »
I would not run Rye down for one second. It is a special place in the world of Golf and deserves the respect that goes with such status. There is nothing pretentious or even particularly nice about the clubhouse or any of the facilities. It is just golf at its finest. The reason I was asked my opinion is the RR ties are break with the natural norm there and they were curious of an outsiders take on the defense. The same men who tossed Ms Thatcher still view her as the best leader in the post war world. That does not mean she belongs in the clubhouse. I actually think the RR ties are only on two holes if memory serves me.

Steve Lang

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2005, 01:15:35 PM »
 8)

If found in front of that board, say2-3 yards, wouldn't any serious TW'er hit down on the ball to create overspin off the lie.. making it hit that slope and bounce up and on the green?  
« Last Edit: January 15, 2005, 01:16:16 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

TEPaul

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2005, 01:18:51 PM »
"PS--don't dis Rye to much or too often.  They look at places like Merion and Gulph Mills as Hollywodd sets for "Desperate Housewives."  They once threw Margaret Thatcher out of the bar onto her big Tory butt in the parking lot, just because she didn't have the proper mix of chromosones......."

Rich:

I'm not dissing Rye at all but if throwing Prime Ministers or ex-prime ministers out of the bar onto the parking lot on their butts is what that club thinks is a neat thing to do maybe I'll consider dissing them. I don't care how they'd look at a club like Merion or GMGC but I can pretty much guarantee you wouldn't see either of those clubs throwing prime ministers, or anyone else for that matter, out of the bar onto the parking lot on their butts.  

Ville Nurmi

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2005, 01:31:38 PM »
I didnīt notice those rr ties at 7th while I was playing there. BUT I noticed them at the 14th. And it is an option to it the ties really hard let the top spin take care of things. I noticed this with my second chip. I topped the first chip, it hit the sleepers. At the second time I was more careful and topped again. This time hard enough :)

Cheers,
Ville

ForkaB

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2005, 02:50:06 PM »
TEP

I apologise for exagggerating and for (in a lame attempt at humo(u)r) casting aspersions on other clubs.  All I was trying to say (poorly) is that Rye Golf Club can do and does do what they want to do.  Just about all that I see and hear of what they do do is good for the game of golf.

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2005, 11:09:53 PM »
I shall now hoist one to the good men of Rye Golf Club.

THuckaby2

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2005, 09:33:27 AM »
Or maybe I have butchered the whole thing.   ;D

Okay, you're making progress. :)

Would you say that hitting driver-wedge into every green is not "what golf's supposed to be all about"?

Would you say turning to your caddy and saying "what's the yardage", pulling the requisite club and hitting a drop and stop shot is "what golf's supposed to be all about"?

Golf is about getting the ball into the hole. Not how. No style points.

You are a closet dictator who wants everyone to be forced to hit certain shots! Congratulations on finally earning your Golf Digest rater wings! :)

George:

You have this oh so horribly wrong - which is unlike you, my usually perceptive friend.  Read Rich's further explanations.  We seek not to limit options, but to present them!

It is somewhat convoluted here, but I swear to you that's the result.  In a nutshell, on these links, without obstacles, it's putter or bumping it along the ground EVERY TIME - except for those with exceeding skill with the wedge.  Put an obstacle in, and then all of the rest of us have a choice to make.

TH




Bill_McBride

Re:GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2005, 09:51:16 AM »
I really can't believe a historic club like Rye has those boards (they don't look as large or square as a "sleeper") there as a mini-golf type obstacle.  I'm sure they were installed there for erosion control.  As such, the player just has to deal with it!  If there's a deep bunker between you and the pin you don't pull out the putter and then whine because you can't putt over the bunker, right?  Get a grip and deal with it!  Geezz...

(McBride in a somewhat curmudgeonly mood this morning, paying bills in the office  >:( )

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