GCA defenses against the Texas Wedge

[ForkaB]

The picture in Andy Levett's thread showing that incredible green complex at Rye has an interesting little feature at the lower left which Mr. Nuurmi surmises is a sleeper (railroad tie) embedded in the ground to prevent a "ground game" run-up to the green.

At first I thought "Shock!  Horror!", but after some reflection I wonder if this is not a good idea, in moderation.

Much as I love options on a golf course, and given the fact that I play a lot of my golf on courses which allow for the liberal use of the Texas Wedge, I should think the Rye idea is artificial and lmiting, but.......

1.  Too much opportunity for TW play can lead to addiction and overuse.  I know of more than one player who gets out the putter any time he is within 60 yards of the green, and while it is fun to watch the first time, after a steady diet you begin to wonder, is this really golf?

2.  The delicate little pitch or chip over a hazard is one of the hardest shots in the game and the most beautiful to watch executed properly (parfticulalry if it is you who is lucky enough to pull it off!).

I don't think one needs embedded sleepers, but what is need is some sort of anomaly between the ball and the hole.  Olympic has a number of these neat little features, as do most great links courses.  Even a little bit of slightly rough ground can work to make the TW more risky (e.g. the right side of the 6th green at Dornoch).

I wonder why Rye chose the option it did?

[THuckaby2]

Good question re Rye.  I'd bet someone here knows an exact answer.

And good thought in general, as well.  I am one of those who just gets SO uncomfortable hitting lobs and short pitches off the tight firm turf found on the UK links and some other places that I pull out the putter from 60 in for sure if nothing is in the way.  It's just SO much of a higher percentage play than relying on my meagher skills not to skull or chunk a wedge off that stuff... But you're right, it does get old quickly and becomes more comedy than golf.  Oh, on a trip over there for a week or so one tends to just enjoy the comedy... but if this were a steady diet, I think you are right on - there needs to be something in the way to prevent it... because one ought to be faced with a situation where the pitch/lob skill is required... because it is so fun to pull off correctly.

BTW, you are lucky if you've played Olympic where this is an issue... it's never been close to firm enough to allow a TW in my visits there.  But you're correct, there are several cool features like this on the Lake.  It's just pretty easy to lob over them on that soft turf.

TH

[Mike Benham]

BTW, you are lucky if you've played Olympic where this is an issue... it's never been close to firm enough to allow a TW in my visits there.  But you're correct, there are several cool features like this on the Lake.  It's just pretty easy to lob over them on that soft turf.

The firmess is improving ...

Gib once wrote a reply stating his opinion that you could play the ground game at O Lake and detailed how.  Of course, his ball flight may be more appropriate then others ...

[THuckaby2]

Mike, Gib would play the ground game on top of Lake Tahoe.

But you're right, not that long ago he did detail how firmness is improving.  And I don't doubt it.  But I also don't see a reality where the texas wedge is the proper play there except right on any given fringe.

But we shall have to find out this spring/summer.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Watch it Rich, the TW is about the only shortgame I have anymore.  I recall a higher cut along some of the slopes at Dornoch that forced me to chip, I thought it occurred earlier than #6.  Also and this is more appropriate in new construction but I will manipulate the surface so if the TW is not quite hit with proper speed it is carried into a bunker, to a direction away from where they intended to go or to the opposite side of a ridge in the green so the next putt is most difficult.  So, manipulate the surfaces to redirect the TW is fun.  In existing courses removing rough and making it fairway brings slopes into play that can capture the TW and carry away from the intended target.  There is just way too much rough around greens.  Converting it to fairway allows the TW to be used as an option and it brings all the wonderful little slopes around the green into play.

[George Pazin]

Why take out options and try to define shots?

If your friend is getting up and down consistently with a putter from 60 yards out, you should congratulate him, not try to penalize him.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The President of Rye Golf Club along with a few members asked my opinion of this feature over pints last year. While we talked for hours, it was the only specific architectual question they asked. I actually said I did not like them for one of the eternally endearing aspects of Rye was the sense of you and nature with minimal intrusion by the hand of man. I did note that it made getting up and down from that side of the green very difficult and a double bogie probable. They laughed for that was the experience of most when missing right. I then punted by saying I would put forth the question to Tom Doak later in the week. Doak had a no answer answer when we chatted about it at Painswick.

[THuckaby2]

George -I don't think Rich said his friend was getting up and down from 60 with a putter... just that he was HITTING THAT SHOT each time.  Big difference.

And to me, what Rich suggests adds options more than it takes them away.  That is, with that very tight turf, unless you are VERY good with the wedge, the percentage play is to putt without a doubt.  Hell the ball rolls like a putting green anyway and these fairways likely stimp at 8 or so.  So it just makes so much sense to go ahead and not risk the chunk or skull that a wedge presents that putt becomes the ONLY play, for very many people, including me that's for sure.

Now put something in the way and the balance changes... hell, at times I might STILL putt, going around the obstacle if not through, just because that still might be the best play.  But likely not... likely I'm gonna now have a choice to make - and that is if I want to get it close, I'm gonna have to risk the wedge.

Oh well, that's my take on this anyway.  What might trump all of this is that putts from 60 yards are cute, and fun, but just have a stink of goofy golf to them.... hard to explain but Rich gets it... it's just not what golf is supposed to be.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Remember at Rye the defense is only in between the traps on that side of the green. It forces a different play unless you want to try to roll it through the trap. I would not do that sense there is a trap on the other side waiting for your ball.

[THuckaby2]

Tiger, re the specifics at Rye, I trust you and can only hope to see for myself some day.  

All I can see from afar is that they do tip the balance completely toward the wedge... and that to me is a good thing.  That is, you've had a day full of rolling it along the ground, and then whoops - you get behind one of these things and you really have to think.  Same happens at The Old Course.. it's only when one gets one of those deep bunkers in between him and the hole that the thinking and creating starts.  Anywhere else, it's just keep it on the ground, play the breaks as best you can.  Unless you are really skilled with the wedge and that becomes a better play, that is.

TH

[Andy Hughes]

I don't think one needs embedded sleepers, but what is need is some sort of anomaly between the ball and the hole.  Olympic has a number of these neat little features, as do most great links courses.  Even a little bit of slightly rough ground can work to make the TW more risky (e.g. the right side of the 6th green at Dornoch).

I am a bit confused by this (and neat topic Rich).
If Rye is a great links course, and most links courses have neat little features that accomplish what this artificial piece of wood is apparently designed to do (stop someone from running his ball up to the green), then why does Rye need it?  From the pics I have seen of Rye, it has plenty of topsy-turvy and swells and swales and all the rest. Certainly the pictured hole has it in spades.
If that's the case, then:
1. why does it need such artificiality?
2. doesn't it take a fairly high level of skill to navigate such ground with a running approach to get both the weight and the direction right?

[George Pazin]

George -I don't think Rich said his friend was getting up and down from 60 with a putter... just that he was HITTING THAT SHOT each time.  Big difference.

You're right, if he is getting up & down there is a big difference - limiting options is EVEN WORSE. Why would you want to force someone who's taking 3, 4, whatever shots to get up & down with a putter to choose an option he is less comfortable with?

Shame on you, Huck - I thought you Cali boys liked to stick up for the little guy.

[THuckaby2]

Well for one I don't like to be labeled... and for two, you are missing the point.  

Oh well... it is difficult to explain.

My point is that absent something forcing the wedge, for most golfers the ONLY rational choice is the putter or some other straight-faced club given that tight turf.  Put an obstacle in the way and the thinking and choices begin. So yes, that makes it harder... but it also makes it more fun.  It's just as boring to hit roller after roller as it is to hit lob after lob after lob...

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

very simple....bermuda grass!!

[Brent Hutto]

very simple....bermuda grass!!

Aye, there's the rub. Even better...overwatered Bermuda grass!!

[THuckaby2]

Man this is tricky.  I think it's clear that firm and fast conditions are very fun and to me preferable on the overall to lush and soft, for the many reasons that have been mentioned many times in this forum.  But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing, and maybe that's what's going on here.

So bermuda grass... maybe that is the answer overall.  And I have so little experience with it, I don't really know.  But of course this will not stop me from opining that to me it seems to play too slow and stop too much.. I don't see rolling it through bermuda fairways being a wise play very often... so we are back to wedge only for pitches.

Oh well.  Variety remains the key.  How we get at that is how we are seeming to differ.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

So bermuda grass... maybe that is the answer overall.  And I have so little experience with it, I don't really know.  But of course this will not stop me from opining that to me it seems to play too slow and stop too much.. I don't see rolling it through bermuda fairways being a wise play very often... so we are back to wedge only for pitches.

On Bermuda grass there are places where you can roll it from way off the green and places where that approach ain't gonna work. For that matter, your little finicky wedge shots differ greatly in riskiness (unless you make perfect contact every time) depending on whether a tight Bermuda lie is with or against you. It's knowing the difference between one patch of Bermuda and another that's the judgement call.

[THuckaby2]

Brent:

VERY interesting... hmmmm... that does seem to provide all the answers here.

I need to play more on bermuda.  

[Andy Hughes]

*Sigh*
I can't believe GCA-ers are praising the use of bermuda around greens, suggesting it as an option to "improve' the ground game, something that silly ol courses like Rye could use to improve.
What's this world coming to??  

[Sean_A]

I think the idea of an obstacle to the ideal line of play is fine, especially after a loose tee shot.  Why does it have to be a piece of wood?  This is an odd thing to put in the way.  Wouldn't a few feet of longer rough or a bunker be better?  It looks like there may have been a bunker there at one time.  I would say anything, even at the risk of having nothing (gasp!), would be better.  There is loads of skill in trying to hit putters up in these situations.  So much so that good players are smart enough to try it almost always as a last option.

Ciao

Sean

[George Pazin]

There is loads of skill in trying to hit putters up in these situations.  So much so that good players are smart enough to try it almost always as a last option.

Now I'm thoroughly confused. If it takes loads of skill to use the putter in this situation, why eliminate that option?

Your responses don't make any more sense either, Huck.

[Mike Hendren]

The picture in Andy Levett's thread showing that incredible green complex at Rye has an interesting little feature at the lower left which Mr. Nuurmi surmises is a sleeper (railroad tie) embedded in the ground to prevent a "ground game" run-up to the green.

At first I thought "Shock!  Horror!", but after some reflection I wonder if this is not a good idea, in moderation.

Why isn't anyone answering the question at hand.  I think the wood "curb" at Rye is atrocious.  How about a billboard that precludes the lob shot and dictates the run-up.  How about chicken-wire strung around the green.  No way this gets a pass in my book.  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Oh well, that's my take on this anyway.  What might trump all of this is that putts from 60 yards are cute, and fun, but just have a stink of goofy golf to them.... hard to explain but Rich gets it... it's just not what golf is supposed to be.

TH

I played my second from about that distance at the 16th hole of The Old Course with a putter.  The same stout wind that aided my driver made the front pin inaccessible with a lofted club.  When my "putt" finished three feet from the hole, my caddy thought it was anything but goofy.

It's precisely what golf is supposed to be.

Mike

[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Mike. If that line on the photo is really a piece of wood set into the ground to stop a ball that's rolling it's a gimmick, not a legitimate feature.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Hell, I went driver/putter on #4 Pacific Dunes (449, obviously dead down wind and rock hard).  I hit putters all over The Old Course, and damn near every other links I played there.  So I am a big fan of the putter from long distances on any given shot.  That's not the point.  The point is that do this EVERY TIME and it becomes goofy golf.

So perhaps they have gone too far at Rye in putting in wood planks in an attempt to stop the ground game - that is a bit much to me, although who the hell am I to say one of the greatest courses on earth, one I have never seen, has anything wrong.

The point is more that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.  Thus I seem to understand what Rich is getting at and agree with him.

Or maybe I have butchered the whole thing.  

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